Chichester Harbour Fees to rise or more speeding fines ?

[DAKA]

Chichester conservation are looking to spend £13 m on Groynes (groins? you know what I mean, the wooden bits you dont want to hit with the props /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif.)
There are 28 000 license holders @ £80 = £2.25m

The sums dont add up do they ?

Can we expect the short fall to come from the 'stinking rich' mobo owners in the guise of speeding fines ?

Should I vote no for the sea defenses, does it really matter if a little depth is lost in the Chanel.
£13 m pays for a lot of dredging anyway !

If a few deep drafted vessels cant get in/out that will reduce berthing fees, may help towards the increased diesel /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

 

[epervier]

quick question, nothing to do with your groin,

can you get done for speeding in uk waters?

and how do they go about collecting it?

20 odd years back a got a couple of bollickings from certain harbour masters, ( bucklers hard and medina) but never got fined

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]
quick question, nothing to do with your groin,

can you get done for speeding in uk waters?

and how do they go about collecting it?



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you can be fined. Several cases this year, a couple in Chichester Harbour and 2 to my knowldege in the River Hamble - the offenders are taken to court under local byelaws.

Guy I know was fined £2k+ inc costs a few years ago in the Hamble.

 

[DAKA]

Excellent question and good reply but I assume a guilty plea was made or proof would be almost impossible to prove.

The police have to be trained and equipment tested regularly.

The only fines I have knowledge of are where skippers have given up and paid.

In the recent cases the case relied on the sign displayed at the slip that the boat had used to launch.

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent question and good reply but I assume a guilty plea was made or proof would be almost impossible to prove.

The police have to be trained and equipment tested regularly.



[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the police - normally falls under the jurisdiction of the Harbour Master. The Hamble is plastered with signs which state max speed 6 knots or no wash. It's not the same as speeding in a car.

The same applies in Portsmouth Harbour - the maximum permitted speed is 10 knots through the water, but wash is the overriding feature. If your boat at 10 knots is pushing out a big wash then you must come down to a speed where there is no/minimal wash. It's down to the Queen's Harbour Master if he wishes to take the matter to court, and his powers are very far reaching should he wish to use them. As are most Harbour Masters.

Maritime law applies and it is steeped in history, a lot of the legislation is still applicable.

 

[duncan]

amazing jump to assume that stincking rich mobo owners actually exceeed the speed limt and would therefore be liable for these additional fines................. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Channel Ribs]

[ QUOTE ]
It's down to the Queen's Harbour Master if he wishes to take the matter to court, and his powers are very far reaching should he wish to use them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehehe /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Understatement of the day /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[epervier]

at the rate of 2k per fine Chichester Harbour only need to issue 5375 speeding tickets to make up the shortfall for their groins! with 28000 permit holders guess a 1/3 might be MOBOers of which just over half might get caught for speeding,

moneys in, job finished!

 

[DAKA]

You infer the Harbor authority find it easier to win a conviction than the Police.

Police have to be trained in the use of speeding equipment.
The Police speeding equipment has to be checked every day or the conviction would not be successful.
In most cases the motorist owns up to speeding when shown the speeding gun read out that may or may not have been tested that day.

video evidence of a shop lifter is almost bound to fail as two people can look the same and who is to say the shop lifter didnt put the item back out of view when they realized they already had the same CD in thier pocket paid for in another shop !

Bearing the above in mind how can the Harbor launch succeed if the skipper maintains 'it wasnt me'.


Well Duncan, you can rest assured I will never admit to speeding , I noted someone else comment a few days ago saying it was more economical to plane and why waste £20 to slow down for a small yacht /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Malcb]

Well then , come down to Chichester Harbour and try your luck. Or if you're really feeling like a good try on, go into Portsmouth Harbour and take on one of the Police Boats /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Frontier]

You know I sometimes wonder if our authorities are being a bit over restrictive with the limits.

I was on the Connecticut river recently and this guy came past as close as it looks.


**** Video ****

The wash was not really a problem, yes we rocked a bit, but nothing like I was expecting. I was standing and taking photos, I didn't have to hold on.

These were the same,

[image]

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[image]

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[image]

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We often hear from the raggies that some big mobo went past at dangerous speed, and nearly caused an accident. Most of the mobo's passed us at such speeds that day, although others were more considerate with their distance. If their river banks can stand it (and you can see the banks in the background) way cant ours?

I wonder if there is a case that a mobo going as fast as he dare in a limit area (say 7 kts) causes a wash that is deeper and has more energy than a planing boat that is much higher out of the water. With these guys it seemed to be more froth than wash.

Maybe the Americans have different water /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I should say I never speed in limit areas and I try not to cause wash near other boats, if someone gestured that I was then I would slow down a bit more.

I came into Gosport once at about 6kts and the patrol came near and politely pointed to my wash and made slowing gestures, so I slowed he waved a thanks and I thought that was how it should be handled. I didn't really think my wash was unreasonable and I really was only doing 6 kts. But I would be happier to comply with such polite advice from the Harbour Patrol rather than have instant speeding fines, for something that comes down to a subjective view.

 

[fireball]

Passing close by at speed

[ QUOTE ]
We often hear from the raggies that some big mobo went past at dangerous speed, and nearly caused an accident.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problems with passing close by at speed for the slow boat (often the raggy) are:
1) Is the mobo really passing - have they seen us?
2) What if something goes wrong - they have engine/steering failure, or we get a gust which causes sudden course change - it could easily cause collision.

and on to the asthetics:
3) We were having a peaceful sail - if we wanted to hear the roar of engines we'd buy a mobo
4) The sea usually has a rhythm to it - the wash from the mobo (however large/small) has introduced confusion - all beit for a short period of time.

So - in open water I can perfectly understand the complaints of being passed too fast.... now onto restricted waters ...

In Chichester Harbour (as that was the opening location of the thread) .. there are fingers of water - these are relatively narrow channels reaching inland ... the harbour has 1 narrow entrance (unless you can go under the bridge between Langstone & Hayling!) for everyone to pass through.
There are a large number of users of the harbour - from your "big" mobos right down to canoes and kids in dinghies ...
The speed limit is there to a) reduce the risk of a speed related accident - and b) reduce erosion of the wetland areas (I guess!).

a) With a large number of users in the harbour it stands to reason that congestion means everyone needs to go more slowly - the speed limit should go some way to minimise the diversity in speeds ...

b) the wetland areas are built up with fine silt - although the natural waves doesn't seem to have harmed them - I don't pay too much attention to them though!
Significant wash does have a detrimental effect on others using the harbour - I can remember being swamped when a motorboat powered through a choppy Chichester channel start line causing pyramid type peaks in the waves (I don't think he was speeding - just trying to get out of the way of 100 or so boats being sailed by juniors!!) - one of these peaks decided to rest in the bottom of my mirror /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif luckily I wasn't racing - so could reach off and get rid of the water before the start! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. The main thing about wash is that it is normally significantly different to the normal sea that is running - so unless you have seen the wash creating vessel go past the change is unexpected and it is that that can cause problems ... (not heard of any particular accidents or incidents caused by wash in Chi Harbour though ... anyone?)

 

[[2068]]

Re: Passing close by at speed

I do look back at the wash created, and it does vary according to speed. At semi-planing speeds, it's quite impressive, if big waves are your thing.

But if you get her planing properly, the wash drops off dramatically, so long as you leave enough room such that the "first wave" misses other craft. About 50-75yrds is normally enough not to cause too much of a problem. Anything closer is going to spill the G&T on the other boat.

It made me laugh when I was approaching a racing fleet a few weeks back. They were all heading towards a buoy in open water west of Osborne Bay, and the choices were:
1.) accelerate past the lead boat (distance 100m plus)
2.) turn 180 and go back the way I came
3.) end up in the midst of 50-60 racing yachties

So I accelerate onto the plane, and pass in front of the lead boat, easily 80m away, and the skipper goes bananas, rocking his arms from side to side to show what happened to George Clooney in a "Perfect Storm". I pass him and slow down at a safe distance away. My wake rolls on, shrinking as the fleet approach behind. We still wait. And then his boat hits my wake, which because I crossed at 90', hits his bow dead on.

And by the time he has finally got there, nothing happens.

Nothing at all. His boat doesn't even move as it slices thru the (now puny) four inch wave. A G&T balanced on the foredeck wouldn't even have wobbled.

I would have loved to hear the crew comments.

dv.

 

[fireball]

Re: Passing close by at speed

[ QUOTE ]
I do look back at the wash created, and it does vary according to speed. At semi-planing speeds, it's quite impressive, if big waves are your thing.

[/ QUOTE ]
You think you've got problems? I take my turn in the patrol boat for the dinghy racing ... you have to go fast enough to keep up with the fleet, not too fast to break the speed limit and try and keep wash to a minimum to avoid helping some in the fleet through surfing or causing problems in light winds when they have their kites up ... oh - and making sure you don't get in everyone elses way (mobo, not constrained by draft - so generally in the wrong which ever way you look at it!) .... all this whilst keeping a close eye on your fleet and 1/2 eye on other users in the harbour who might need your help (it can get very boring covering a fleet that doesn't need your help /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif .. )

 

[duncan]

[ QUOTE ]
Well Duncan, you can rest assured I will never admit to speeding , I noted someone else comment a few days ago saying it was more economical to plane and why waste £20 to slow down for a small yacht



[/ QUOTE ]

it's certainly more economical and better for everyone to plane rather than run around in that no mans land around the hump............but true displacement speeds will be even more economical than best planning speed - if a little slow.

the slowing down / coming off the plane is a large mobo, open water, no restriction thing .........and yes I can see fuel price unfortunately being considered more of a factor in the future.

personally sitting around in open water fishing I do get to experience my fair share of wash incidents - large planning powerboats makes one hell of a wash in flat calm conditions and it easily travels a mile with enough force to put all the boat trays on the floor! However I consider that my fault for not spotting it comming. Boats passing within 100m on the open water (not the Swash, Solent, or even areas like Swanage Bay or off Old Harry where I expect boats to be 'on a course') do however piss me off.

 

[DAKA]

Thanks for the video.

As you say there hardly seamed to be any wash on the plane.
The next 2 mins of the video would be interesting as we would see just how little the boat rocked.

Maybe the problem is too many mobos slow down and if we kept on the plane we would save valuable diesel, be out the way of sail craft sooner and create less wash.

I have seen many boats leaving Chichester and the Hamble on the Plane and I thought they were selfish but perhaps they have already realized there is less wash.

I must say boats passing me on the plane are not the problem ones it is more the 10 knt through anchorages that rock us.

Perhaps the ones that pass you Duncan @ 100m have slowed down a little ?

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen many boats leaving Chichester and the Hamble on the Plane and I thought they were selfish but perhaps they have already realized there is less wash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although wash could be a problem - especially if you've got the hump ... I think it is more to do with the proximity of the fast vessels to slow ... after all - you wouldn't go and ride your bicycle on a motorway would you ... even a dual carriageway can be distinctly dodgy - especially if the cars are going past at the allowed limit... and then along come the lorrys ... you just need that little bit more s p a c e ... for comfort...

 

[Pete7]

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent question and good reply but I assume a guilty plea was made or proof would be almost impossible to prove.

[/ QUOTE ] Yup how do you measure the speed of another boat moving on a different course when your own boat is also moving and subject to tides, cross winds and its engine. Possible a submarine navigation officer might be able work it all out but not the Yoofs employed by Chi harbour to drive around in a rib.
Only ever seen the Pompey harbour patrol "have a quiet word" which seems to work quite well.

Pete

 

[[2068]]

Was witness to the chap that got a stiff fine recently. I've no idea what he said when finally stopped, but it can't have gone down too well. The harbour patrol rib was struggling to catch up, following him at fast planing speeds all the way from the sailing club across to E Head.

dv.

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
Yup how do you measure the speed of another boat moving on a different course when your own boat is also moving and subject to tides, cross winds and its engine.

[/ QUOTE ]
When the other vessel is doing 20+ knots it is quite obvious ... not heard of any fines for doing say 10 knots in chi harbour ...