Chartsales cancelled charts

[lowenna]

As I am planning a long voyage which would need far more charts than I could afford to buy new, I am thinking about getting the cancelled charts which can be found on www.chartsales.co.uk. I know that they state (probably for legal reasons) that they must not be used for navigation but the price saving (£2.75 against £7.65 for a second hand valid chart and £17.60 for a new one) would allow me to have larger scale charts than I could afford otherwise.

If I downloaded the Notices to Mariners, consulted Reeds and always used the charts with caution, do others think that they would be acceptable? What procedure do you think I should go through to update the charts?

BTW, I would probably buy newer charts for certain dangerous areas, or areas I intended to spend a lot of time in.

 

[AndrewB]

I think this is reasonable, provided you recognise the risks involved. If you look very carefully on most charts you come to appreciate that the surveys on which they are based are far older than the chart itself (one I have just bought is dated 1843!). What changes in the mean time is buoys and lights, dangerous wrecks which are generally well marked anyway, and TSS's. For areas of shifting mud and shallow sandbank like the Thames Estuary though, your charts need to be right up to date. Luckily there are only a few such places worldwide. Carry Reeds or similar up to date pilot guide which will provide additional warning of major hazards.

 

[AndrewB]

I think this is reasonable, provided you recognise the risks involved. Far better to carry an old chart than no chart at all. Anyway, if you look very carefully on most charts you come to appreciate that the surveys on which they are based are far older than the chart itself (one I have just bought is dated 1843!). What changes in the mean time is buoys and lights, dangerous wrecks which are generally well marked anyway, and TSS's. For areas of mud and shallow sandbank like the Thames Estuary though, your charts need to be right up to date. Carry Reeds or similar up to date pilot guide which will provide additional warning of major hazards.

 

[starboard]

I use this service all the time, even the second hand charts are normally in pristine condition, cancelled charts not a problem providing you are aware of the restictions, mainly buoys and lights no more or changed. You tend to find the rocks dont move though!!! he cancelled charts are normally ones that have been superseeded with a new chart number.As you say you can get more for your money this way and I bet the charts will be as up to date as many are using at present!!!

Paul.

 

[Anonymous]

It does depend where you are; around TSSs and shoaling areas things change monthly. In other places, there are no changes for years on end. Much better to have very old uncorrected charts than no charts or too few charts as long as you keep in mind the uncertainties.

You don't say whether you are also using a plotter with current cartography. If so, then it's all pretty straightforward. If you don't have a plotter, then you really need to check positions of all relevant buoys - they do change, look at the Thames Estuary where it looks as though they are not even tethered! Also the lights. Before I had a plotter I used to run along the track and alternates to check buoys and lights and put a tick by those that I'd updated. Be especially careful with the major lights and their sectors because if you can get those right, you can usually sort yourself out also be very careful to get the updated lights for your pilotage because that can throw you - dangerous as you are usually in shallow water with hazards around.

 

[Equinox]

Apologies for being blunt but not using correctly updated charts is rather foolish. Charts are updated to ensure that so far as possible you have the most up to date navigational information so that a voyage can hopefully be planned and completed safely.

Buying new charts and not correcting them as required is one thing, but to intentionally buy old out dated charts for the purposes of saving a few quid is just bad seamanship. I suspect your insurance company would take a very strict line on this if your ever had to make a claim following a sinking/grounding etc. They would argue that your vessel was not seaworthy due to old uncorrected chart editions being used.

If any crew onboard were injured in the incident they could also make a claim against you for negligence. Is it really worth the risks?

 

[lowenna]

Of course I'm aware that there are dangers involved and I would love to have the money to buy a full set of charts. But the difference between new and old charts would probably come to £200 which is far too much to afford, many of which I will only use for one or two days as I pass along the coast (French coast, BTW). Within a limited budget, my choice would be to buy a few, new small scale charts or several old large scale. Which then would be the best option?

 

[Colvic Watson]

See the recent issues of PBO. Can't remember the name of the guy, but he's doing a serries on round Britain. Ex-Royal Marines chap. Did it all with cancelled charts as it saved him nearly £2000. Just use the free web service for updates. We should all be checking our charts anyway before a passage. Even a chart bought new in June is already 4 months out of date as they get updated in February.

 

[rivalranger]

If you are looking for cheap current non-UK charts then this company may be able to help.

http://www.tidesend.com/


They sell copies of current US issue charts, seem to have coverage for most of the world (except UK).

French Coast including Biscay, 57 charts about $300.

 

[Stemar]

I wouldn't have a problem with cancelled charts and an up to date pilot book. I'd just go over the iffy bits in the pilot book and correct the charts where it matters.

Personally, I don't see any difference in having an old chart and buying a new one and not corecting it. If you sail into a buoy that's been moved you're in equally deep mire in either case.

You do need to remember to check the datum, though. Old charts may not be to the current WGS datum, as your pilot boot almost certainly will be, as will your GPS. This will only really be relevant when you need your position to be accurate within 100m or so, which is surely fairly rare more than a couple of miles off shore. Not necessarily as show stopper, but definitely something to be aware of.

I'm planning a cross channel cruise this year. I want a chart I can plot positions and plan my route all the way across. I don't have a problem with that one being cancelled - or even the wrong datum, but I think the Channel Islands charts will need to be reasonably up to date, and certainly the same datum as my almanac!

 

[Birdseye]

You cannot update the way you were thinking - new editions of charts include more than just the cumulative N2Ms. Mind you, I think it was the UKHO themselves who said that 80% of yotties sail with uncorrected charts, so what you are prorosing is better than most. Watch the datums by the way.

Personally when sailing off a rocky shore I was quite happy to use uncorrected charts, but I found it really worthwhile to get an up to date pilot. So given my perennial lack of cash, I go that way - up to date almanac, best pilots I could and whatever is left on the charts. Mind you, this approach means you often dont need the harbour chart.

And following a point above, you would be daft bto sail with other than family aboard. Even if other crew were insured, their insurance company might still sue you in the event of an accident. The only true defence is abject poverty, which doesnt go with boat ownership.

 

[Guest]

Post deleted by danfoley

 

[duncan]

typical practical point............

personally I would go with the up to date pilot and then whatever you can afford to add. Any paper chart is inherently out of date for many of the reasons already quoted, as are electronic ones, all of which suggests there is no such thing as an up to date chart - only the most up to date available.
Taking the route you propose is simply exchanging the need to update appropriate areas of these charts where the purchase of new ones would have it already done.
Enjoy your voyage

 

[bilbobaggins]

Er, it's a long Brit tradition to be cavalier about this. I myself have several dozen elderly charts I use for 'planning purposes'. I still believe that it should be both my right and my responsibility to choose the degree of hazard that I accept - I still do have a few old 'black and white' examples of the Hydrographer's art - but you really should have a heightened awareness of the provisions of the SOLAS V Regulations.

These are relevant to you worldwide, and you may well find that a French, Portuguese or other official insists on checking both your passage planning and your charts and publications - including several that are now mandatory in all the seas. It is not unheard of for transgressing boats/owners to be arrested, and subsequently fined - see our own MCA website for a current list!

By all means cut corners - but do be fully awake and aware when you do so.

 

[BrendanS]

I've had a look at the list of prosecutions on the mcga website for 2003, 2004 and 2005, and cannot see any relevant prosecutions. They appear to be against commercial vessels for a variety of reasons, none of them for carrying out of date charts.

Solas V regulations don't specifically require up to date charts on board, nor written passage planning, at least as interpreted in the UK. In what ways are other countries interpreting them?