Charts and freedom of information

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

I believe that some of our differences over this stem from a different attitude to sailing and navigation.

We usually cruise the English channel and to South Brittany each year. It is just inconceivable that I could take the boat to South Brittany without a Chart. The channels through the rocks and offlying dangers round the Chenal Du Four and Raz Dur Seine I have sailed many times, but I can't remember the charting accurately enough to sail there without something in front of me on paper (or electronic if we had it). Even the bits we could sail, I would have to be so conservative about offlying dangers, I would be miles off the coast much of the time. The bottom line for me is that I like to sail round the green bits on the charts, thread my way through the rocky bits, and applying the pilotage skills that I am still trying to perfect. For this I still need accurate charting

When you talk about your home waters, I do understand what you are talking about. I can sail in the Solent without a chart (having taught and raced there a fair bit) I sometimes have a quick look to check where the shipping channel is exactly in relationship to us when large ship is coming, but for navigating safely by day - no chart probably. When racing and trying to cheat the tide close inshore, I would still want to have a quick look to make sure of my transits etc.

Yesterday afternoon I went out for a sail down the Tamar and round the breakwater and never got a chart out once.

(Doesn't mean I will go to sea without one though! If it gets foggy, or dark, watch me start drawing lines on my nice new chart....)


None of this has much bearing on the original post which tried to say that UKHO should release their data free of charge. They won't and I don't believe that they should. Moreover in a free market I believe shipping will continue to pay for the quality of data and the product that they supply.
 
Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

But the French fishermen in the Chenal Du Four and Raz Dur Seine do not use charts.

Bet you use GPS going through either? Bet you stick to the buoyed and very well marked channels? Bet you have a pilot book on board with details of the marks, routes & leading lines/courses?

Realistically the extortionately expensive Admiralty charts are designed for big ships with very deep drafts - not for yachts. That's why they try to market expensive yachtsmen charts. If you sail off the beaten unbouyed marked track then you have have to go back to traditional methods -

For example in the Red Sea only the central area is properly charted. The reef areas where small boats travel are based totally out of date information made by sextant fixes... Nobody in their right mind would rely on Admiralty charts and GPS as they would be on the reef in a day.

Firstly most of the information on an Admiralty chart has been obtained during the last 200 years and paid for a thousand times. the concept that the copyright rests solely with a commercial operation is outrageous. You can get road maps for the whole of Europe on the net. You can buy perfectly good charts of every country of the world copyright charges free - except the UK - Australia tries to follow the UK lead but Tides End will sell you Aussie charts.

I am not saying you should not use charts - I have never sailed anywhere without 'paper' backup (sometimes Cmap printed out on A4) but I am saying the price of Admiralty charts are unfair, unrealistic and the best way to stop this protectionist trading is to buy for example - American Charts.

When did you last correct all your charts?
 
Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

The french fishermen do have charts on board - by law.

The fact that they might not look at them is as relevant to this debate as me not looking at a chart when I sail down the river Tamar.

If you want to discuss whether the UKHO are expensive, that is a completely different subject. The original premise was that the data should be free.

It isn't because there's no such thing as a free lunch.

I will be more explicit.

If you buy a UKHO chart, you are buying into a providence of data and quality control that is second to none.

If you download a US chart, the QC on the data is of a completely different order. If anyone (I mean anyone) sends in a sounding to the US charting authorities, it is likely that it will be added to the database. This could be 'delete a shoal patch' or it could be 'I found a shoal patch'.

80-90% of the World market in charts is from UKHO. Make up your own mind, but don't say that what you get for free is the same product.
 
Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

-----------The French fishermen do have charts on board - by law.-------------
but I posted use them....


-----------If you buy a UK BA chart, you are buying into a providence of data and quality control that is second to none.-------------

Oh come on - I am very proud of my country too but have to admit that that other countries can be good at some things - What is wrong with French Charts? What is wrong with Spanish Charts - both countries have explored the world and charted it as much as 'we' have. American charts no good???? Really? Are you trying to tell me that those super carriers and nuclear subs are all using BA instead of American. That is patriotism a step to far.

The Americans are willing to allow the entire world to use their charts FOC. they are of the highest quality used by the biggest?? navy in the world.

You can buy excellent photo copies of American Charts for about $6 yes 6 US dollars and from my experience they are just as good as BA charts at £20. OK they are a bit out of date but so is a BA chart unless the day after you buy it.

If you are driving a super tanker or a carrier then you need the most accurate chart possible for obvious reasons. If you are sailing a small boat with a 2mtr draft then frankly the rocks and shore lines and anchorages and do not change and you probably have yachtsmen pilot books on board and a echo sounder not to mention GPS...
 
New Chart - the day you buy it ....

Having corrected Charts / Navigated big ships with over 2000 charts on board etc. - US / UK and other Hydrographic offices versions .... I can honestly say what a load of twaddle I read in some of the posts ...

Sorry but lets remove some incorrect assumptions :

a) A chart bought over the counter is not 100% up to date unless immediately handed from corrector to you ..... near all charts I rec'd direct over Agents desks had corrections still to be applied - which I had to do before putting it into the folio for use.
b) US charts and many others are derived from various other foreign HO work ... eg UKHO - and it works in REVERSE as well .... UK using US data .... etc.
c) Rocks don't move ..... majority true and is actually what I live to ..... but the lie of a channel can change dramatically after a storm or heavy weather etc. But no chart can keep up with that. No-one can.
d) I don't believe actually that many people survey channels al low water unless it is a strange location or they have reason to believe the channel has changed significantly.

I think personally that in terms of yachting - the Small scale Yachting or the Home Waters Charts system should be developed for UK waters to provide a cheaper, better system for the average yottie ..... the present is split across UKHO, IMRAY, Stanfords etc. and I think it silly that it is reapeated and the prices are such that careful thought is made by many to actually what charts are needed etc.

IMHO of course !!
 
Re: New Chart - the day you buy it ....

If you read all my replies to this debate, you will see that I concede many of the points that you make. It doesn't alter the basic argument one jot.

Yes UKHO uses data from other organisations/countries/surveys. What we do with it and how we check it is another matter. Look on the chart - all surveys and data sources are acknowledged.

If you want to argue about how expensive the product is, don't argue with me. I don't set the price, and hopefully you will also see that I cannot possibly comment.

Let me remind you of one basic and unalterable fact.

80 -90 % of the WORLD merchant fleet use UKHO because they know the providence of the data and how much care is taken with obtaining it and printing it.

Just don't complain about it not being free data - it costs money to maintain the sort of reputation UKHO has for accuracy.
 
Re: New Chart - the day you buy it ....

At the end of the day, it has to be funded from somewhere - perhaps we could have copyright free charts for the UK if we pay light dues? ... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

By the way, I don't usually stick to the bouyed channels down the Chenal du Four and the Raz du Seine. I often treat bouyed channels as being for shipping and keep out of them...

So what if the GPS is turned on. I still plot where I am on a chart - don't see what point you're making.

I am now officially bored with the discussion. Read what I have said again and if you don't understand or agree then we will have to agree to disagree...
 
Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

Very happy to agree that a large proportion of the world merchant ships possibly use BA charts - let them pay for them! And the Notices! They are good charts. No question and the merchant ship has a use for them.

BA charts for yachtsmen are the equivalent of being sold a Rolls Royce to go shopping in, when all that is needed is a mini.

We sail small boats seldom with a draft of more than a couple of metres. The BA charts are out of date when we get them - see previous post by Nigel Luther a professional navigator. The information provided on American copyright free charts is as good for our use - in small yachts - as that provided by the BA.

If I have my GPS on and my Cmap running I do not plot my position on a paper chart. In fact I hardly ever plot my position on a paper chart. I do have them on board and I do write down my lat and long every 4 hours or so in case the gizmo's go down - what on earth do you want to spoil very very expensive charts for?

The copyright for literature and music etc runs out after 50 years from the death of the author - What gives the BA the right to charge yachts people huge amounts of money for charts which are based on surveys by Captain Cook or surveys by countries that actually have a real freedom of information act!

An awful lot of people sail very successfully with photocopy charts from American sources - At $6US they have to be better value than out of date BA charts at £20!
 
Hang on a moment .....

I don't totally agree with UKHO and charts supplied - see my previous post .... I feel an expansion of the Small Scale Chart system into a more economic / realistic chart set for yotties is called for.
BUT must agree with John_Morris ... as an EX professional Navigator - I understand the value of the UKHO professional Chart series .... (I use the term Professional - as only way to distinguish them from Small Scale) .... they are superb, last for years with all the drawing on / rubbing out etc. etc. The data quality is second to none .....

I have difficulty with some of the arguments on both sides .... the UKHO maintains that they are a Profit Organisation and need to realise profit from their charts etc. But it is not actually the UKHO who actually surveys - its often RN or other agency. Usually govt. funded. The UKHO is as own admission part or subservient to RN / Govt bodies ..... so we have a strange mix of govt body and profit body ..... mmmmmmmmmmm interesting.

We have on the other hand claims of free charts in USA / NZ - actually not true - as they are still subject to charges for production / supply.

So we have a debate that has some quirks in and a strong sense of no satisfaction on both sides.

Charts have always been commercial - USA or wherever .... so have no objection to the high quality pro charts .... the yottie jobs ought to be more economic and restricted to yachts use ...

My biggest argument actually is not Charts - but Tidal data ....... that is a difficult one to see how UKHO can claim copyright to that - especially when so many other Harmonic source data are available ...... FREE of charge - even IN the UK !!

So thats it then .....
 
Re: New Chart - the day you buy it ....

It's entirely up to you if you think what I am saying is "twaddle".

The fact is, I trust UKHO to produce reasonably accurate and up to date charts, and the stuff they can't hope to capture (shifting sandbanks etc) I will survey by eye at low tide.

It's worked so far: what do you think I should do differently ?

dv.
 
Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

80-90% of the World market in charts is from UKHO

I think that claim has much more to do with reasons other than providence of data and quality control that is second to none as other hydrographic organisations are also competent too (even though in some cases they don't speak English like all us much more "clever" folk /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif).

One reason is habit, another is the size of the catalogue which came about originally from a fine history of exploration and trade, and the (perhaps less fine according to some) history of colonisation. Another is that they are in English language which means they can be read by all large vessel crews regardless of nationality (hopefully /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif). On the last point there is only one other country (that I am aware of) with a worldwide catalogue of English language charts and that is the USA. USA has not considered themselves as "purveyors to the world" of charts (international chart production driven mostly driven by military I suspect) and has been generally isolationist in merchant matters (eg Jones Act).

Nigel and Michael's points I pretty much agree with and ask you John what on water surveys of their own do UKHO contract in the Pacific. No doubt it happens but I would be most surprised if the data was not in the main now obtained from other offices (of your claimed lesser quality perhaps?). The closest I have seen of any UKHO survey in the Pacific in recent years was when a UK naval vessel "discovered" a rock off Lord Howe, but there again I think most of the world already knew that was there, including UKHO /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

John
 
Re: New Chart - the day you buy it ....

Not sure it deserves repeating, but I did not ask for free charts I asked UKHO for charts under the FOI-- i.e. available to me at cost of paper & printing or the CD (plus maintaining) rather than the price that you get charged at the chandlers

I accept many of the points you have raised, but strongly feel there is a case for two pricing models -- one for "professional" use including notices to mariners etc, but as others have suggested perhaps reduce the cost of leisure charts to cost of supply?

Have to say the RYA e-charting product is a good initiative -- cheap, lasts one year then needs renewing, but it has some drawbacks -- restricted to PC use and all the risks that entails. Not sure you can use it for live navigation, certainly I wouldn't rely on it. great for planning though.

An extension of this kind of scheme might be a way forward?

All the best

Nick
 
Did I accuse YOU ??

I carefully did not point at anyone, nor did I name anyone ..... I consider some comments from various peoples posts to be twaddle - that is a personal IMHO - based on my years as a Ships Navigator and using both Metric and Imperial ..... yes the real interesting B&W charts from UKHO and also many other sources.
I also as many know run an e-group concentrating on GPS / E-Chart matters ......... that certainly is an education for me as well as many I presume.

UKHO has carried a fine reoutation for its products for more decades than any other. Born of tradition of Captains etc. drawing meticulous charts for own use over centuries .... then the RN bringing it tgether ...... to then devise a correction and support system that would bankrupt lesser mortals is commendable ....

So Pro charts ok .... leisure charts ??

I have trouble with this topic as I find myself in the cannot decide group - can see both sides arguments ......... but for ME - I would like to see a reduction in costs to yachties and a greater involvement of UKHO with our sport putting aside the poor effort with RYA on the Chart Plotter episode - which is a poor relation to many other plotter systems out there ....... It wouldn't be so bad if the plotter accepted other chart forms to allow it to continue with non UKHO charts !!

The debate goes on ...........

and final comment - If the Cap fits wear it .... sorry Kim.
 
Re: Did I accuse YOU ??

I started a debate like this one a little ago, but it didn't last very long, but here is again. you surely learn something.
Just today, I went into a shop specializing in maps to have a look.
I could get a roadmap of nth Queensland, some 1000 km, for au$7. They also have special charts for small boats users, at a cost of au$25, for 50 km of coast. Both map and charts are made by the the Queensland Governments dept of motor transport.To buy all the charts for the same distance, would have cost me au$500. Just where is the fairness in this.
John, how much would it cost you to sail around the world with your UK charts. And John, please turn off your gps, you are using FREE USA services, or at least, send them some money for the use of their services.
I wonder how loyal you would be, if you lost your job tomorrow. Defending your job is one thing, but in reallity, they are only create a huge black marker.Spoke to a around world sailor, and he didn't have one single chart that wasn't copied. Simply couldn't afford it.
Also, bear in mind, that a pencil line on some charts is equal to 1/4 to1/2 mile wide, so what the point of having up to date charts, if THAT rock is within that range.
Potting around in your own backyard, using one or two charts is one thing,
but can you imagin the cost if you have to sail 2000 km of coastline and paying 30 dollars for every 50 km.
In all fairness, lets not forget the greedy middle man. Yes you know who.
 
i.e. should be available to me at cost of paper & printing or the CD rom rather than the price that you get charged at the swindelry.


Isn't that the whole point of the discussion that no one seems to have mentioned?

Not sure anyone can genuinely object to a fair cost for the chart but why should we pay the mark up to buy them from a dealer?

Aviation has the same problem - UK £15.00 approx, US $5.00 (?£2.50)... although some UK re sellers do offer free updates.

Rip off Britian again? If you can sfford to fly/boat then you must be rich enough to pay over the top for things. A piece of rope from B & Q - 50p pm, chandlery - £1.50 pm - same bit of rope!

PW
 
I just went to the shop and got 3 Michelin maps of parts of the south of France - immense amount of detail - lots of colours - nice paper - cost 4.5 Euros!

Given it is the Royal Navy that does the majority of survey work for the UK and we pay for that with tax it seems outrageous that to photocopy an BA chart is illegal - particularly when much of the basic info on it is so old it must be out of copyright!

Is it not time that a forum like this starts to pester all the IPC editors to pester the publicize the problem?
 
I have an interesting question, would you be able to import and sell charts in competition with UKHO, now that you have a government that is all for free trade and competition. Here in Australia we have just signed a free trade agreement with the USA, so does that mean that we can import and sell charts in competition with the government, competition they so much wants the rest of us to have.???
Competition equals lower prices, does it not. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top