Charts and freedom of information

[Trevethan]

Following up on another thread on charts and the freedom of information act I sent off a mail to UKHO requesting charts under the act -- i.e. should be available to me at cost of paper & printing or the CD rom rather than the price that you get charged at the swindelry.

I got the following reply

"Dear Mr Trevethan,
Thank you for your interest in our products. The items you request may be obtained from Admiralty Chart agents, a list of whom is available on our website at www.ukho.gov.uk. These items form part of UKHO's published products, and are listed in the Ministry of Defence FOI Publication Scheme. Information listed on a Publication Scheme is exempt under section 21 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
UKHO is an Executive Agency of the Ministry of Defence and a Trading Fund in its own right. It is required under its Framework Document to cover its own costs. Please consult our website under "About Us / FAQs" for further information, and under "Freedom of Information" on that website for our FOI Statement.
If this information does not address your requirements, or you wish to complain about any aspect of the handling of this request, then please contact the UKHO Helpdesk in the first instance. If, after we have responded to this, you are still dissatisfied, then you may apply for an internal review of this request by contacting the Director of Information Exploitation, 6th Floor, Ministry of Defence Main Building, Whitehall, London SW1A 2HB. UKHO is an executive agency of the Ministry of Defence, which oversees this aspect of UKHO’s work.

So liiks like they won't hand over the goods..

Ah well

 

[snowleopard]

I guess they've anticipated you!

 

[boatmike]

Thats the longest "sod off" I have ever read!

 

[moodycruiser]

"UKHO is an Executive Agency of the Ministry of Defence and a Trading Fund in its own right. It is required under its Framework Document to cover its own costs."

but haven't we already covered the costs as taxpayers ??

 

[Trevethan]

That was the point I made in my initial enquiry. Iguess they can argue there is an ongoing update service notice to mariners, which is funded by sales?

Anyway, interesting exercise in futility I guess!

 

[pragmatist]

I think you'll find they go further than that. Anyone producing a tide program is supposed to pay them a royalty as they claim they own information - though quite how they own a tidal harmonic is beyond me - although those of the feline persuasion probably know the answer.

 

[kandoma]

you can buy "free" charts from the US goverment for the price of printing, paper and shipping by ordinary mail. I have many of those charts, but I have more british charts because they are cheaper in the end.

For instance Galapagos Islands: If I remember correct, if you buy US charts, you need 12 charts to cover the area. If you buy the bristisch admiraltiy chart, you need one (1). All the possible (cruising)islands are supplied on one chart.

Second problem is, that many of the US charts are not updated. I had US charts for Japan. The "new" airport of Osaka on a artificial island was not even hinted, just totaly missing.

Anyway, you should check the american charts. You can order the original charts over the internet, legal copies from swindlerys.

Peter

 

[Mirelle]

One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

Unfortunately the UKHO are not paid by the taxpayer, other than for Naval charts which are a tiny part of their work now. (Telling tales out of school, though, guess which was the very last organisation to buy Decca lattice charts...?)

 

[john_morris_uk]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

I don't get cross very often, but the suggestion that charts should be free because we have paid for them through our taxes takes the biscuit.

(I declare an interest inasmuch as I work for the Hydrographic part of the RN)

If you would like to come and visit Taunton/Hydrographic office perhaps you could pm me. I suspect that after a quick chat with the people who produce the data and supply the charts you might change your mind.

I'll give you a clue - ask them about the 'Free US charts' and stand by for the continuous laughter at the quality of the data that they use, and the way that data is checked.

You might also ask who is the prefered supplier for the vast majority of the commerical world?

In fact the way oceanographic data is shared is the result of a whole raft of international memo's of understanding and treaties, and the costing and who pays is an immense and complex subject.

The bottom line is that the chancellor is not going to start subsidising the worlds shipping or anyone who goes to sea by paying Taunton to produce free charts.

 

[iangrant]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

I have to agree with John. I've spent some time in Taunton and I don't think most people have any idea of the work that goes on there.

It was some time ago. Imagine the scene, batches of charts already printed all stored ready for sale, becoming out of date by each day! All to be corrected by a room full of people, an awful task. One of hundreds of logistical nightmares.
I feel confident using Admiralty charts, not sure about some of the other publications available.

Ian

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

Hi John

Perhaps I can elaborate a little which may uncross you a little over he concept of "free" charts /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Working in the industry you are probably aware of much that I say, but it is intended as general information for all, and not intended at all to tell you how to suck eggs or to promote any special case.

I am not sure exactly what the US's exact policy is but I understand that it is similar to here in NZ and in neither case are the charts "free" ie mariners do not get free charts. While I have no need to get involved in copyright charges my understanding is that copyright charges have also been removed here for all hydrographic information.

Here, and I am working a bit from memory because all this happened quite some years ago, the hydrographic information is regarded as a national resource. When compared to other things, that is not an unusual stance to take.

For example, information held in public and national libraries is regarded as a national resource in most countries and one does not have to pay to access it, or if one does have to pay, then it is only for the cost of retrieval from the archive, copying, postage or whatever. The collection and holding of the information is regarded as a state responsibility so when we ask to access a book and perhaps have a page copied for reference we only pay for copying the page, we are not charged a share of the cost of the original book or its notional cost should it be an appreciating rare book or document (which share could be huge in the case of some rare documents).

Another example is government statistics departments where in most countries the information is gathered, stored and analysed at the cost of the state as it is regarded as a national resource. To access that information one, in most countries only has to pay for the cost of printing and distribution (if in a publication of that department) or retrieval if one has a special requirement.

So here in NZ (and as I understand it the US policy is very similar) the hydrographic information is regarded as a national resource in the same way. So when one buys a chart essentially all one pays for is the cost of printing (plus the cost of corrections to stock also I think), the cost of distribution and the agent's margin. This results in a cost of around NZD20 (approx GBP7) per paper chart, and that includes the international charts in the NZ catalogue (ie the small scale international ones for the whole of the Pacific and those for some of the Pacific Island nations).

Where this really comes into its own is for electronic charts as the cost of producing and distributing a CD is next to nothing. So at the moment the whole NZ catalogue (approx 150 charts from memory and including the international ones I mention above) costs around NZD60 ie approx GBP22.

With electronic charts an interesting consequence is that it costs just as much under this policy to produce a CD with corrections on as it does to buy the complete catalogue on CD. So purchasing the corrections for a year, which are produced on CD monthly here, costs around NZD320 (around GBP115). For recreational mariners and smaller commercial to whom corrections are not so important the obvious approach is to buy a new set of charts each year ie at NZD60. Furthermore, all these charts are available for download free off the internet as high resolution TIFF files but are not for navigation (for obvious reasons and are not maintained corrected) but certainly serve well for the likes of recreational users of SeaClear, for example.

I should point out that the hydrographic data includes tides, astronomical information, light lists, etc and again that is disseminated at the cost of distribution. That means that it is free on the internet and published in paper for the cost of printing. But paper is being rapidly phased out in favour of electronic.

Obviously, NZ is only a small country and the volume of hydrographic information is much different to a larger maritime nation such as the UK - but in the end it is only a matter of scale. There are also matters in that NZ's official charts are still only available in raster (HCRF v2.0 I believe) but an ENC project is underway.

Perhaps I should add that this policy does not just apply to hydrographic information but to all similar information on land such as topographic.

As I say all this came about quite some time ago now so the exact letter of what I say may not be correct but the general message certainly is. I hope that is of some use in reflecting how the policy works against the management of other national information which has always been managed in a similar way.

Finally, a comment truely directed at you John /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif. You comment on the quality of US charts in a manner as if that was a result of their current pricing policy. However, I do think it is fair to say that the quality of their present charts is not inferior to those produced before they adopted the current "free" policy.

John

 

[john_morris_uk]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

I understand and take your point regarding the information that the NZ and other Governments decide is 'free'. This isn't the policy in UK and I don't see how it would ever be justified on the scale that UKHO works. See the comprehensive answer given by the UKHO above!

My comments regarding US charting information has no bearing on the price, free or otherwise, of the US chart data. I cannot comment more on the accuracy of data of other survey authorities on a public forum for fear of overstepping my responsibilities and duties to the crown!

When we (the RN) survey an area, the care and precision that is taken is beyond most peoples imagination. Perhaps I should try and get hold of some of the pictures of the sea bed and the sand waves that were tracked recently in the Dover straights? The chart you buy shows minimum depths, but the reality of the sea bed and its motion is monitored until a figure that has some bearing on the reality of what is happening is produced.

 

[fireball]

Survey to Chart

It would be very intersting to see some examples of how a survey turns into a chart....

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: Survey to Chart

{Edit: Whoops, this was supposed have been hung off John's post, sorry folks /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif}

Just in case of lack of clarity - the hydrographic data is not regarded as "free". It is regarded as a resource of the nation (in the same way as the library and statistics examples, and here the concept is also applied to topographic data).

Maybe one leading question - when was the last time the UKHO contracted their own survey of the waters around NZ? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

John

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

................ I feel confident using Admiralty charts, not sure about some of the other publications available............................

Surely it depends on what you want to do - use the chart for. I have had nothing but American out of date copyright free charts for the last years. They cost around $6 depending where they come from (Tides End are good and reliable)

These charts are printed on inexpensive paper to order. The rocks do not move - the land does not move, depths remain pretty constant, the importance of lights as greatly decreased since the advent of GPS. I have pilot books for yachts for the areas I visit to get me in and out of ports and anchorages.

Why on earth would anyone want to pay huge amounts of money for charts that are only accurate the day you buy them? Bet hardly anyone who owns more than a dozen or so charts corrects them weekly from 'Notices'.

Buy American freedom of information charts!

 

[[2068]]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

Rocks might not move, but the sand & shingle banks off Chichester harbour certainly do. Ships sink to create wrecks, buoys appear and disappear, cables are laid, and areas marked for excersises or target practice for the Royal Navy.

If none of the above is of any interest to you, then a free chart is probably fine.

Good Luck !

dv.

 

[Sea Devil]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

But what do you use to get into Chichester - the bouyage & your echo sounder or what?

What do you do after a major gale on springs at the next low water?

Expect the sea bed to be same as charted on your Admiralty chart?

I hope not.

Every winter - every gale, hurricane or what ever the sea bed changes in all shallows and unless you update your expensive Admiralty charts with 'notices' you cannot rely on them?

When did you last correct all your charts?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

You may choose to do what you want of course - its a free country.

However, the original proposal was that the data which had been collected at public expense should be freely available.

But much of it isn't collected at public expense. Some is commerical, some is MOD/RN, some is overseas shared data etc etc.

Use whatever charts you want, but when you get lost/go aground/can't figure out what they have done to the bouyage etc etc, don't complain when you could have chosen to pay for the up to date data and chose not to.

'Rocks don't move' is an old chestnut. Whose datum are we measuring them on? Who did the survey and what did they use? If it was a single beam (or even leadline) survey, how many rocks did they miss?

You pay (or not) your money and take your choice.

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

I have to go along quite a bit with Michael on this (there's a surprise /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).

Putting aside larger foreign going and coastal vessels not on short local routes the majority of small vessels work in waters well known to them and a current chart corrected to date is entirely unnecessary and in my experience with small commercial vessels they never use charts while in familiar waters (sorry for all those yachtsmen who draw lines all over their nice new and corrected charts while sailing in familiar waters) except to the extent that if they they have an ECS and autopilot integrated they obviously use the ECS to set up the waypoints for the pilot.

Our own home waters in which we regularly sail extend over approximately 1,000 sq.miles and I believe that I could quite confidently sail all of that with out charts. There are obviously areas that I am not very familiar with but in those cases I know enough as to how far to stand off to avoid dangers ie one proceeds with extra caution or just stays out of that particular spot. But here is the nub - I don't sail chartless in home waters or anywhere around my home country because the charts are so cheap (as I said in my previous post, for the full catalogue of electronic official charts only NZD60).

They are not "free", only one does not have to pay for the gathering of the data used in producing the chart - if one thinks about it, there are far more examples of this policy with data beyond those I have already given. For example all the data that councils collect and store and (generally, in most states) make available for only the cost of retrieval or printing, not the cost of collection (property valuations, surveys, permitted use plans, property plans, flood ponding dangers, storm water and sewage plans, etc, etc, etc) - any thought shows a whole range of similar cases in the public arena where the collection and storage of information are funded as national or local resources eg land register information. Rightly or wrongly, several countries have considered hydrographic (and topographic) information to be the same and have implemented such policy - I do not think it is an alternative to get cross about, and it is not a threat to quality (else one has to raise quality concerns about all the other things the same policy is applied to), it is a valid approach.

For small pleasure vessels that are wide ranging internationally into totally unfamiliar waters it is entirely out of the question to carry up to date and corrected charts for every port or refuge that one is likely to enter and I am comfortable with the concept of older charts and cheap productions as well as guides/pilots being relied upon. Again, as Michael says, depths change and for the case of warmer waters one has coral to worry about (how regularly are such waters resurveyed - very infrequently I suspect). Generally most yachtsmen should be able to make their way safely into a strange port from all the daymarks at least, and other cues (sounder, cruising guides as Micheal says) but in the end if a port, one can always call the port radio for guidance.

John

 

[[2068]]

Re: One of my best friends is an Admiralty Chart Agent!

In fact, go down at low tide at the start of each season, and have a wander round the banks to see what has moved where. Then, use depth sounder and caution for the first couple of runs, followed by large doses of throttle for subsequent runs. It's worked so far...

Also, the harbour conservancy print an updated survey each season.

You're right, the chart doesn't really come into it. But I still like the idea of having a chart that is reasonably up to date and accurate, it's just a warm fuzzy feeling.

dv.