Chart Updating

[Thistle]

Do you carry properly updated charts on board your vessel? No? Have a look at Vessel unseaworthy because of crew’s failure to update navigation chart or, for those who prefer it from the horse's mouth, so to speak, Alize 1954 and another (Appellants) v Allianz Elementar Versicherungs AG and others (Respondents) - The Supreme Court .

 

[Sandy]

The requirements for commercial vessels are very different from leisure vessels. I sailing for part of the year on a 30 meter yacht, it has an IMO number, the charts are updated week. Clearly somebody failed to do that.

 

[Poignard]

Mea culpa.

 

[dunedin]

The requirements for commercial vessels are very different from leisure vessels. I sailing for part of the year on a 30 meter yacht, it has an IMO number, the charts are updated week. Clearly somebody failed to do that.

Yes, fortunately they are differnt. Particularly as technically the use of the charts on a leisure chart plotter or a mobile App (Navionics etc) are all marked as “not approved for navigation”, so would not be considered acceptable, no matter what date of update.

 

[arc1]

The requirements for commercial vessels are very different from leisure vessels. I sailing for part of the year on a 30 meter yacht, it has an IMO number, the charts are updated week. Clearly somebody failed to do that.

A reason why RN Navigators' Yeomans liked it when the RN when fully electronic and all they had to do was insert a CD into the machine!

 

[Sandy]

A reason why RN Navigators' Yeomans liked it when the RN when fully electronic and all they had to do was insert a CD into the machine!

It is a lot easier, even the new way of sending out the updates electronically where you can just print the bits related to the charts that you need to update is easier, but the time spent 'pouring over and updating charts' on a long winter's night allows the brain to absorb the detail allowing you to process it at a subconscious level when it is needed. Does Team Vestas ring any bells?

 

[mjcoon]

It is a lot easier, even the new way of sending out the updates electronically where you can just print the bits related to the charts that you need to update is easier, but the time spent 'pouring over and updating charts' on a long winter's night allows the brain to absorb the detail allowing you to process it at a subconscious level when it is needed. Does Team Vestas ring any bells?

What can you pour over a chart without rendering it unfit for navigation?

 

[requiem]

Seems the problem here was not so much having updated charts (they had them), but not having them properly annotated as part of the passage plan. As I recall, proper passage planning is required even for leisure vessels on international voyage, and still advised even for those staying local.

I do prefer at least to follow the spirit of the guidelines, thus my occasional rant about inadequacies of plotters and popular apps. It's much more efficient to work out a plan on laptop or tablet, as well as to download the weekly updates with a single click. We're well into the 21st century; when people are still having to fiddle with paper and dongles (thinking of Vestas here) something is terribly wrong.

 

[Black Sheep]

Disclaimer: I'm only talking about the situation in the UK here, as best I understand it.

As I recall, proper passage planning is required even for leisure vessels on international voyage, and still advised even for those staying local.

Close, but differs from my recollection in a couple of aspects:
- a passage plan is required for all voyages - local as well as international
- there is no requirement for the plan to be "proper" in any sense. It doesn't even need to be recorded anywhere.

Leisure sailors aren't bound by the same chart carriage regulations that affect commercial vessels. We aren't obliged to carry charts, and any charts we do carry don't have to be updated. I like to think that most of us do carry charts especially when venturing into unfamiliar waters - but many will not regard it as essential when day sailing in local waters. Dilligence in updating will be a personal decision. Personally, I don't care if a charted depth has changed from 13.8m to 14.2m. But I do care if someone's imposed a new TSS in my sailing area.

Nobody "has to" fiddle about with paper. Some choose to use paper charts. Some choose electronic. Many choose both. We're a very broad community of sailors with very different values and ways of doing things. Long may that continue.

Let's not confuse Regulation with Guidance, or especially with "Good" Practice where "Good" varies with your perspective.

 

[Graham376]

The requirements for commercial vessels are very different from leisure vessels. I sailing for part of the year on a 30 meter yacht, it has an IMO number, the charts are updated week. Clearly somebody failed to do that.

That depends on where you sail. Where we are, it's a requirement to have up to date charts and pilot books on board. Even in the UK, insurers may have reason to refuse a claim if the skipper hadn't shown due diligence by not having up to date charts.

 

[Black Sheep]

Even in the UK, insurers may have reason to refuse a claim if the skipper hadn't shown due diligence by not having up to date charts.

Oh, please! Not that old trope.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; for all I know you have a particularly draconian policy - it would be useful to see the relevant clauses ftom your policy.

My policy has two exclusions that are on the fringe of relevance:
- liability arising from any wilful act or reckless conduct by the insured person...
- liability where the insured craft is not in sound condition and the claim directly relates to the condition of the insured craft

I submit that neither of those would apply with regard to having out of date charts on board. Even in the extremely unlikely event that the reason for claim was hitting a rock that was in the missed chart update.

 

[dunedin]

That depends on where you sail. Where we are, it's a requirement to have up to date charts and pilot books on board. Even in the UK, insurers may have reason to refuse a claim if the skipper hadn't shown due diligence by not having up to date charts.

I suspect a reasonableness principle would apply here. Having a paper chart that was a few years old, and perhaps a chart plotter chart also a few years old, would I suspect be generally seen as acceptable for routine cruising.

Trying to sail round the UK with just a 1980 AA Road Atlas, on the other hand, would be more likely to be able to shown as gross negligence. Or say trying to get into Cumhann Beag, Jura in a deep keeled yacht without a pilot guide and detailed chart.

 

[Black Sheep]

... more likely to be able to shown as gross negligence....

Negligence is covered by insurance policies - that's part of the point of them!
The insurance company would (in my case, anyway) need to show "wilful act or reckless conduct" before they could refuse liability. The test for recklessness is a much higher bar than mere negligence.

The insurance thing is a huge red herring. It really isn't relevant to anyone's decsions about updating charts, any more than the court ruling about a container ship mentioned in the OP

 

[Graham376]

Oh, please! Not that old trope.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; for all I know you have a particularly draconian policy - it would be useful to see the relevant clauses ftom your policy.

My old Towergate policy actually had a clause along the lines of - the owner will at all times display due diligence. Current Topsail policy doesn't but has a clause which leaves "equipped" open to argument - Seaworthy - fit to encounter the ordinary perils of navigable waters, properly crewed, equipped, fuelled, provisioned and with the hull and all parts, equipment and gear in proper working order

Some SOLAS regulations also apply to small boats, a note here about charts - SOLAS V Regulations (boatability.co.uk)

I don't update all the charts I carry on board but buy local sailing area ones every time new editions published, which is usually every couple of years.

 

[Black Sheep]

Wow - that's a pretty sweeping seaworthiness clause. If you read that to mean they will refuse cover for an out of date chart, then I suggest that you're not covered for anything - no failure of boat, equipment, crew. I doubt such a clause would hold up under legal challenge in the UK.

A more authoritative source of guidance on Solas V as it applies in the UK is the MCA. Their only mention of charts is the same as your boatability one - you should be aware of relevant navigation dangers when planning your passage. They mention consulting a chart as one way to achieve this. But it isn't the only way.

You are not obliged to carry a chart on board.

You are not obliged to update any chart that you do carry.

You may decide that it's prudent to do so. But nobody's forcing you to (in the UK, leisure sailing, boat not over however many metres). How many dinghies carry charts?

(for my local area, I buy new whenever it seems appropriate - after major changes; not every edition. I keep half an eye on local Notices)

 

[Sandy]

That depends on where you sail. Where we are, it's a requirement to have up to date charts and pilot books on board. Even in the UK, insurers may have reason to refuse a claim if the skipper hadn't shown due diligence by not having up to date charts.

Forgive me. The forum is rather UK centric apart from the Liveaboard sub-forum that is seen as a place of refuge for migrants who have left for the mainland.

 

[Graham376]

You are not obliged to carry a chart on board.

Look at it another way, there's now a Supreme Court judgement about chart updating which would have been the same if no charts carried. However unlikely, if someone not carrying charts runs their boat onto a charted obstruction and a crew member dies then what would be their defense?

 

[Graham376]

Forgive me. The forum is rather UK centric apart from the Liveaboard sub-forum that is seen as a place of refuge for migrants who have left for the mainland.

Maybe UK centric but just look at the number of posts on all forums about Schengen 90/180, VAT, RCR/RCD. residence etc. It would appear a large number of UK based contributors want to know what's happening in EU in case they visit, the same questions appearing with boring frequency.

 

[Black Sheep]

Look at it another way, there's now a Supreme Court judgement about chart updating which would have been the same if no charts carried. However unlikely, if someone not carrying charts runs their boat onto a charted obstruction and a crew member dies then what would be their defense?

For Heaven's sake - Sandy dealt with that in post #2!
That court judgement has nothing whatever to do with us.
The judgement concerns an abstruse point in the Hague–Visby Rules, which is a set of international rules for the international carriage of goods by sea. It is irrelevant to us (unless you are carrying international cargo?).

 

[arc1]

It is a lot easier, even the new way of sending out the updates electronically where you can just print the bits related to the charts that you need to update is easier, but the time spent 'pouring over and updating charts' on a long winter's night allows the brain to absorb the detail allowing you to process it at a subconscious level when it is needed. Does Team Vestas ring any bells?

I have travelled from being an ardent paper is best proponent (all my training and my navs job on paper) through to my last sea job and Middle East/Indian Ocean deployment where paper folios weren't even held onboard, not even for planning. I can honestly say that the officers who had come through in the electronic era planned as thoroughly as I ever did and the electronic charting systems added to rather than detracted from situational awareness and, in my belief, were safer. Obviously certified ECDIS systems with their large displays and combined with big ship power supply arrangements a different kettle of fish than a small sailing vessel with a chart plotter and a tablet.
My boat has paper charts on board. I use them for an overview, but most execution and planning is now done using electronic charts (although I always produce a paper pilotage plan in a notebook if going in anywhere new). I am confident in my abilities to conduct paper navigation and do still practice occasionally (although it doesn't add to any satisfaction I take from my sailing). With improvements in reliability of small boat systems (including through multiple devices) and with younger sailors having been completely immersed in an electronic world I suspect that the direction of travel is only going one way...