Chart downloads for UK coastal waters

[Not true. The data (even the ocean stuff) is updated. There is a very little that is old, but check the survey sources on your charts and try and prove your point to me that most is old.]

From memory a number of survey dates on my charts go back to the 19th century.

I once had a considerable argument with a yachtmaster examiner because I was reluctant to trust chart data because the original survey went back more than 50 years.

Some areas around the UK are still uncharted - the Solway area and parts of the Yorkshire coast around Bempton spring to mind.

Perhaps they are official secrets too.
 
"[ Its classified and it would be inappropriate to discuss this area further here.]"

I think what JM is hinting at is that nowadays what's under the sea is vastly more interesting to many people (some with epaulettes) than what's around the edges - which is what is of most interest to you and me.

In fact how about yottie charts which don't give any seabed detail below the 20 metre contour? Could they be cheaper/free?
 
Well perhaps so, but I assumed such information would simply be left off the chart.

Commercial users have world wide charts so presumably whatever secrets there may be are kept from them somehow.

I really do not see the argument having any validity:

The principle is that they are selling information that we as taxpayers have already paid to be collected.

Even conceding that some small part of this may need to be secret I do not see how charging (again) for that information which is not secret protects the security of the secret bit.

It sounds like the usual "last resort" of a desparate civil servant.
 
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Will agree to disagree, maybe I should have qualified previous post by saying I meant free for yotties and pleasureseekers.

PS welcome to arevert

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Fact - many charts for most areas incl. UK are free to download from various p2p file sharing networks ... but they are all pirate and flouting copyright.

Why should Yotties / Pleasureseekers be exempt from paying ? Consider that Commercial shipping pays far more for its use of the harbours / ports etc. ..... Light Dues, Port Fees etc. etc. So if anyone qualifies for free cahrting - ist shipping. Average Yottie pays his marina / mooring fee and that's it. He gets "free" use of lighthouses, buoys, nav-aids paid for by others.

Sorry for the little rant there .. but I think it tends to be forgotten ..
 
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The thinking that says "We have invested money in this, we have to charge for it to get our money back" is out of date, and organisations that can't see it will eventually collapse from outside competition.

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I think I would have to take issue with this statement. Any commecial organisation that "invests money" in a project does so solely to make money (I am ignoring the rare charitable atcivities).

With newspapers, etc. the majority of the costs are in the printing and distribution, so it makes sense to publish free on the www, where the advertising revenue can be made with minimal cost.

However, the economics of charts (for instance) are somewhat different. Major costs are in the continuing research (as has been pointed out) and the potential for advertising revenue is minimal.

The other examples raised - car and equipment manuals - are also different, as they are not the product itself, just support to the product. In fact, I think you will find that most of the car manuals available free on-line are pirate copies of copyright products from Haynes, etc.

Sorry, rant over.
 
Why should commercial shipping pay?

Basically because in the most part they make little or no contribution to UK exchequer.

Certainly they pay more to use ports and harbours, but they make hugely more demand on a port than a yacht does so reasonable that they should pay.

I agree that little contribution to navaids but the reality is that most boat owners are making a significant contribution to taxes in income tax and VAT which again most commercial shipping does not contribute.
 
The only agreement I will make with your post - is that Commercial shipping is not making the larger contribution to UK coffers because of UK Govt's lack of support for MN contrary to many other nations ...

But don't forget that many shipping co's regardless of flag have UK owners / interests ... even our Beloved Cunard and P&O ... that do pay into UK coffers through indirect or other means ...

But Commercial shipping pays heavily for all services that it uses ... - there are no freebies for any vessel that visits a UK port. The Yachting world benefits from the moneys gathered ... When does your Marina fee split of to help pay for the channel markers / buoys you use to get into port ... when does your Marina fee split of to pay for the lighthouse that shines so bright when all around is dark ?

It's a pity that Mirelle is no longer gracing these fora ... as he being directly involved professionally in this arena would enlighten many about real costs paid up by shipping.
 
Well in fact my marina fee does contribute to local navaids etc.

I berth on the Tyne and as part of the fee the boat has port of Tyne registration for which a fee is payable to finance VTS bouyage etc.

I don't normally use Tyne Dock. or any cranage, or the car terminal or any of the other substantial capital investments that have been made on the Tyne, but why should I - DFDS use the ferry terminal for 3 x 30000 ton ships a day. I make an occasional call to VTS and sometimes look at lights and buoys.

It would not seem unreasonable that DFDS should pay more, much more.

Its also worth pointing out that there is some level of competition between ports. If ports charge too much business will move elsewhere. Same old law of supply and demand
 
ARevert is a bit backward as a nickname init.

Good troll, probably the most informed post you have ever made, just how you got to Ascension in a boat which never leaves your back yard is anyones guess though!
 
Fine ... thats good - but not all ports / harbours are so generously provided for by Marina's !

It would be interesting for any Marina Company to actually state what goes where and why !!
 
My fees to Caernarfon Harbour Trust also help fund the charting & buoying of the Caernarfon Bar and much of teh Menais Straits & approaches which are cehcked & updated every year. Very little comercial stuff passes our way these days.
 
Honestly - glad to hear that some are passing on to local hbrs etc.

It's nice to know that some are passing on a part of the fees to local facilities - lights - buoys etc.
 
cant say I blame you mate, because the ripp off starts with charts and carries right on through untill every little jobs worth and over priced marina has screwed you for every penny
So by the time you have gone along a section of the uk coast line you would have spent ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££

cheers
Mick
 
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[Not true. The data (even the ocean stuff) is updated. There is a very little that is old, but check the survey sources on your charts and try and prove your point to me that most is old.]

From memory a number of survey dates on my charts go back to the 19th century.

I once had a considerable argument with a yachtmaster examiner because I was reluctant to trust chart data because the original survey went back more than 50 years.

Some areas around the UK are still uncharted - the Solway area and parts of the Yorkshire coast around Bempton spring to mind.

Perhaps they are official secrets too.

[/ QUOTE ]There is nothing 'secret' about the unsurveyed areas. Just no commercial reason to survey them.

I don't blame you not trusting data that goes back 50 years, but you have to look at the nature of the bottom and the type of survey to have an accurate idea about how reliable the data is.

Technology has moved on and we don't use lead lines anymore. Unfortunately it will take a long time to survey the world with the latest multibeam sidescan sonars. I am afraid that your argument doesn't hold water as the amount of money put into surveying and trying to keep the data accurate and up to date has to be found from somewhere.

If you want to see a UK surveyor laugh, ask him/her about the quality of data on the 'free' US charts available online!
 
Well

It was you who raised the spectre of secrecy, not me.

Apparently it no longer applies Hey-Ho perhaps thats some progress.

The area I got into the debate about is close to Portsmouth, an area I would have expected the Admiralty to be quite concerned about, but apparently not.

No matter what the amount of money the argument stands - the money comes from us - the taxpayer. And having funded it once we have to pay again to see what we've paid for.

I would strongly favour TK's suggestion of charts looking at shallow water only - the rest can be plain white for me. That would impose very little additional cost - the information exists no need for sidescans or other expensive techy stuff thats meant to impress. A simple drafting exercise.

The VAT we pay on berthing costs alone will pay for it many times over.

I won't even go into the notion of paying VAT on the charts
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Well

It was you who raised the spectre of secrecy, not me. <span style="color:blue"> The point I was making was that much of the survey work that the RN does with 'your money' is not for public consumption. If you can't imagine why or what for don't have a go at me. There is no conspiracy about any of this. </span>

Apparently it no longer applies Hey-Ho perhaps thats some progress. <span style="color:blue"> Don't know what you are talking about - see above. </span>

The area I got into the debate about is close to Portsmouth, an area I would have expected the Admiralty to be quite concerned about, but apparently not. <span style="color:blue"> See above again. </span>

No matter what the amount of money the argument stands - the money comes from us - the taxpayer. And having funded it once we have to pay again to see what we've paid for. <span style="color:blue"> This isn't true. UKHO are told to make themselves pay. The Gov pays in some because we get benefits. If you want to pay more taxes, ask for free charts and tell the Gov to pay even more into UKHO than they do. </span>

I would strongly favour TK's suggestion of charts looking at shallow water only - the rest can be plain white for me. That would impose very little additional cost - the information exists no need for sidescans or other expensive techy stuff thats meant to impress. A simple drafting exercise. <span style="color:blue"> No attempt to impress implied in my comments. Sadly like many people you do not appear to have much idea about the amount of effort that goes into modern UKHO charting. If you survey with lines of soundings using a lead line or echo sounder like in the past you will potentially miss lots of obstructions. Nowadays surveying involves sounding just about EVERY bit of the bottom to ensure that nothing is missed.
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The VAT we pay on berthing costs alone will pay for it many times over. <span style="color:blue"> So the Gov won't put up taxes then? </span>

I won't even go into the notion of paying VAT on the charts
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[/ QUOTE ] <span style="color:blue"> There are none so blind as those who won't see. I notice that no-one wants a visit to the UKHO in Taunton to see for themselves. PM me if you want. </span>
 
Oh dear

You appear to persist in missing the point.

The debate is about why charts are not available free of charge.

You chose to bring in all the secret work that the UKHO does

My point is that such work has little or no relevance to the question under debate.

I am concerned with the bit of the work that produces charts for sale to the public, and my argument is very simple.

The taxpayer finances this work so it would seem very simple and reasonable that such work is freely available to the taxpayer.

Consider the NHS, Education etc etc - all taxpayer funded and free at the point of use.

To bring in the technology used to produce charts is quite irrelevant. I have worked with technology all my life and to be honest its something I would take for granted.

I know its expensive, so is everything else, but once again its the taxpayer who picks up the bill. The Admiralty does not have any money of its own, its all our money.

Your persistent defence of the Admiralty whilst impressive is misplaced. I am not attacking the Admiralty, they merely follow government policy. It is that policy with which I take exception.

I repeat - TK has produced a simple and financially viable solution but rather than take note of that or produce a counter argument the response is only talk of lead lines and echo sounders which is quite irrelevant.

Thank you for the offer of arranging a visit. Rather than the blind not wishing to see, the simple logistics of my home being some 350 miles away from Taunton means that unless I have a reason to be in the area it is, unfortunately, rather impracticable, but thanks none the less.
 
>The taxpayer finances this work so it would seem very simple and reasonable that such work is freely available to the taxpayer.<

You appear to persist in missing the point (to quote). The sale of charts and associated services finances this work. We taxpayers will be called upon to make up any shortfall (through, I suspect, the MOD budget). If charts are given away, rather than sold, the shortfall will be greater and 'we' will pay more.

That would suit us, because we (the users) are are smaller number than we (the taxpayers). Thus the rest of the taxpaying base would be subsidising our hobby. And while that may be admirable, it would not be equitable.

(You could make the same argument about the Ordnance Survey, and land mapping but it would be just as fallacious)
 
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Have you ever been in the UKHO offices at Taunton? Would you like me to arrange a visit?
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Not commenting on the rights and wrongs of charges or when Little 'Appenin in the Surf Creek was last surveyed but I would be fascinated to vist the offices at some time. A forum trip perhaps? SWMBO might like to come too, as librarian at the RN Museum in Pompey.
 
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