Chaos on the water

footit123

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2005
Messages
27
Location
Uk south coast at the moment
sixty40.co.za
The response and the post on jetski getting 6 months has raised several questions ive got regarding regulations and monitoring of waterways etc within the uk and a certain number of idiots out there that use them.
What are the exact legal requirements for operating a vessel over here in the UK.Being from S.Africa i'm interested to know.
Ive always been under the impression that to launch a boat one should be competent and hold the relevant ticket to do so.
What is the actuall story and can somebody inform me!Stupid question perhaps.In S.A one can drive a boat in a river without an actuall special license,but cannot simply launch at a beach and go zooming around at sea.
In my experience of being brought up in a coastal town,having worked as a life guard for years,and having had to pull too many people out of the sea, i could never understand how anyone could be so ignorant and have absolutely no clue when it came to the ocean or any water mass in general for that fact.
Where i come from they seem to not have enough respect or any clue for a sea that is so in your face that its frightening.
Ive been watching what goes on in the Solent and i can draw a parallel.The sea in general over here is allot more inviting/welcoming to the vast numbers of whoever has access to her.Any idiot can reverse down the jetty and put the newly bought jet-ski or powerboat in and zoom off out to sea.
Thats where the parrallel lies,people getting themselves into situations they have no clue about or are to blind to see.
Its like my bathers and your guy with a new boat etc. straight out into the blue yonder for the first time.
Its my walking down the beach back home one day to tell 2 tourists from 800km inland,who's only experience of sailing was in a dam,that they cant launch their Catamaran here,(its not a designated launch site),and furthermore the surf was 10-12ft that day,it would have been suicide for them.(how could they no see that?).
Its not knowing Colregs and wondering why you crashed into someone out there in the Solent.
Its clear as day to me that there are idiots out there on the water that shouldn't be there.
So whats the story on licenses etc.
No ticket no play is what i say.
You don't get in a car and drive down the motorway without a license.So why should it be any different on our waters,and colregs plays an important role in this.
If everyone out there knew Colregs for a start ,you shouldn't get anyone zooming out across your bow,which on the motorway is a traffic violation in the first place.
Perhaps the guy that prompted this didn't deserve 6 months,what did he do anyway?
 
Hi Footit
There is no mandatory license or qualification required in the UK - in fact to my knowledge, they are not needed most places worldwide.
We all suspect this may change at some time in the future but possibly not tomorrow - and there are those who would agree with your views - and plenty who do not wish to see such licensing in place.
As it stands today - if you have enough dosh you can go out and buy a 80 footer powerboat and head off into the Solent - no worries (well not for the driver, anyway).
Cheers
JOHN
 
(Stirring music) We are an island race and demand our right to put to sea, to travel to foreign lands, to rape and pillage etc etc.

Err, that's it really.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If everyone out there knew Colregs for a start ,you shouldn't get anyone zooming out across your bow,which on the motorway is a traffic violation in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]
A naive view IMO. Everyone who drives on British motorways knows you shouldn't exceed 70 mph, drive feet from the bumper of the car in front, overtake on the left, cut across another vehicle and force them to brake etc. etc. A prportion do it all the same.

On the water the chances of being caught are far less and with the increasing availability of cheap powerful vessels the sort of people who drive like that are getting out on the water. Test or no test, aggressive, inconsiderate and dangerous behavious is inevitable. The best we can hope for is to keep it under control with more active policing in harbours.
 
UK = buy and sail

QED

No licencing needed except when it becomes commercial. Private use is governed only by Local / Int. laws when it goes wrong.

If you have money - you buy the boat you want, launch and go....... sort of Plug and Play !

I also boat in a controlled country .... where you cannot boat without a) Boat Inspection and it being licenced, b) person being licenced ..... (being a Brit here ... they tend to ignore me.......)
If I think any problem - then I fly a Red duster of the arse-end !!

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: UK = buy and sail IF insured

these are technically correct. But insurance companies obv wd have something to say for utter beginner. Mind you, not much, i spose.

Licensing-wise, imho, the best route wd be for more policing in the style of portsmouth harbiour, and perhaps with more teeth PLUS "self-licensing" - you have to sign a long tickboxy document on purchased to say yep, i am competent to helm/skipper this boat.
 
Re: UK = buy and sail

Naive perhaps,as Snowleopard says!!
Whats the difference between doing wrong intentionally and not knowing what right or wrong is???
The most unsafe part of driving any vehicle is not knowing what others out there sharing your space are going to do!!
At least knowing that some effort has been made to insure all know the basic rules of Colregs say for a start, would certainly help making the waters safer.
That makes me wonder about the vhf radio operators license etc. etc. etc.
I suppose we all know how to use a telephone though,same thing,right?
 
Re: UK = buy and sail IF insured ?????? Bong !!

The insurance bit is actually a Harbour or Mooring requirement .................

Join a Club or take a berth in a Marina and the clause comes in - Adequate Insurance Cover etc. (Note that rarely does a Marina or Club actually check you insurance document --- because if they do and accept it - they then have part responsibility due to vetting your policy ! If you state you have and they don't check - onus is only on you !!)

Anyway there is actually nothing I can find that states you MUST have insurance regardless ...

As fas as I can see .... having delved via many web sites etc. ..... if you buy a speedboat on a trailer and launch from a beach ... note NOT a public slipway - as they often have local byelaws about insurance !! then there is nothing forcing you to have insurance .....

Also note that for a marina / club in fact the major factor - despite what is written in Club rules !! is the requirement for Wreck Removal - the rest is icing on the cake. Most Clubs / Marina's quote the Third Party coverage bit - as that is a Harbour Req't and they have to abide by it ....

Oh yes .... someone INCORRECTLY stated that Basic Boat Liability who specialise in 3rd Party only Boat insurance do not cover Wreck Removal in marina's - that it only covers swinging moorings ........... BONG !! That is absolutely wrong. Have had BBL last year and checked that very fact, have received the books and docs to do it again this year .... still covered as WR does not state limits ... but is there --- I didn't renew BBL - went back to my old cover with KC Powell - who gave me a deal that would be impossible to find elsewhere and I can only recc'd them 101% .....

So Buy - Sail it still is .................... insurance only comes in from Harbour Rules, Marina / Club moorings ..... local Byelaws etc.

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Licence ........... so what ??

A monkey without licence is a monkey.

A monkey with a licence is still a monkey .....

Sorry but I do not believe a licence regime will remove the problem ........... the UK is and has had for many years a high %age of people with boats ......... it's accident record is better than most other countries with licencing regimes ......... so what's the beef ??

You will always get the idiots out there whatever ...........

OK - lets take an example .... my boat has quietly without fuss sailed the solent for years ............ without incident. Last year when a YM was helming ... he 'clipped' another boat on its mooring ... no damage done luckily.

I have no Yacht Licence (except Day-boat from college many years ago - paper lost now !!) .... (I have Commercial Ships but that is not valid as RYA says !!)

So there's me quietly not hurting anyone else .... year after year ..... then a YM on my boat clips another !!

Please tell me the YM should be better than me ??

(I apologise to you if you recognise this etc. - but I haven't named you so ... mine's still a Guinness !!)

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: Licence ........... so what ??

If you introduce a licensing test you by very definition introduce only a minimum standard. You also introduce the mentality that if you have passed the legal requirement of the test you are safe and responsible. And the chances are once someone has passed the basic test they are unlikely to feel they need to better themselves.

Take the driving license test we have now for cars. Most people assume that because they passed the test they are great drivers. Actually they're just adequate and will still make mistakes, may lack experience and, let's face it, there are a lot of accidents and poor drivers out there. The percentage of drivers that choose to better themselves and take the advanced driving test is tiny. Why? We don't feel we need to.

At present in the boating world a good percentage of boaters choose to undertake training and are keen to improve their skills and get experience safely as crew with experienced/qualified skippers. Wouldn't a compulsory test simply mean less choose to take more advanced training and could the good RYA schemes go the same way as the advanced driving test?

Looking at the good statistics we have and the amount of people that take optional training I don't think we need to change anything. The system works.
 
Re: Licence ........... so what ??

[ QUOTE ]
A monkey without licence is a monkey.
A monkey with a licence is still a monkey .....


[/ QUOTE ]
How many owner/skippers do you know that have taken no formal RYA courses, have no RYA 'ticket' of any sort? Loads, of course, we all have. An RYA course, rather than the attendant ticket, is chosen by some people as a perfectly reasonable way of learning - short circuiting SOME of the 'learning by experience'. The Z2H course is an extreme example of such a course.

But we all know (see the last Z2H thread, and whatever became of Thomas1 BTW) that WHATEVER level (none...Z2H) of course we take, it then requires someyears of experience to build up to reasonable competence (and not go about bumping into anything!). Having done the course, we then take things carefully and gradually, getting more confident as the years go by.

Having a licence is probably more likely to create more confidence than just an RYA 'Pass' in something. Hence your YM pal who bumped.

Our non-licenced system seems to work pretty well, and we don't have to pay the inevitable licence fee each year (£20 for the bloody radio licence!!). Let's just keep it that way. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
My opinion ....

I applaud any who actually voluntarily decide to take courses and increase their knowledge. Regardless of what course it is ........... I believe in education.

But what I hate is the over-confidence of some who take a course and then think that's it - they are god's gift to boating. There are some who advocate the licence system - why ? Because they have done theirs and think its the 'bee's knees' ... just because they decided to do it ....

I would most likely do it - if I was more in UK ... but would regard it as a stepping stone or addition to knowledge already gained AND KNOWLEDGE STILL TO GAIN.

I am not against licencing .... I just don't like the way people hawk it around as the answer to our woes. I live in a region that has Licencing by law .... Ha ! So we have a guy with a Wave-runner power-boat that insists on carving up the water across my canal entrance and up the river ... while others are sitting in their small dinghy's fishing etc. ... what hell's difference has it made ? We also have 'MOT' of boats ... so what - there are still death-traps here ....

No UK has a good record without compulsory reg's .... until someone comes up with a sensible system ... I'm for leaving it alone. It can only be worse if made compulsory without thought etc.

Final comment ......... who would administer any scheme ? RYA ? And some other body ?? Maybe end up with similar to the RCD system that is served by self-appointed twits ??

Forgive my end rant !!
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
I think Lakesailor has captured the essence of the situation quiet well.

SA, and I believe NZ and Aus, not only have regulation of the individual but also the craft. Fundamantally the State is saying that it will decide what and who is 'safe'; here (UK) we encourage people to assess the issues themselves, and get trained to do it.
In SA you get untrained people buying jet ski's and spped boats to go with their lakeside properties in the same way as we take ours to the coast - it's the ocean you treat differently and, whilst we have some difficult waters up North the South Coast conditions are more akin to a lake most of the time!
 
Now using 2 wheels more than the 4. I consider it safest to drive in an empty lane. I am consistantly finding the inside lane empty while the outside lane has cars approx 5m or less apart doing a very complex formation dance of accelerating up to 70 to 95mph then braking hard. Occassionaly I witness from the inside lane the gap becoming -1m! Until Uk drivers drive on the left, let slower vehicles out to overtake (if you don't they won't pull in for you to get past) I will continue to drive and often undertake on the inside lane.
 
in NSW (and other states I thought) driver must hold a licence if the boat will do more than 10 knots under power. So no licence needed for our Bav 44 but needed to drive the RIB.
 
Sorry if I confused things with my clumsy wording; I was intending to raise the issue of craft suitablility/seaworthyness which I had though Aus did to some degree?

In SA recently I was advised that, amongst other regs, single engine OB powered craft were not permittted to go out into the Ocean without auxillary power for example.
 
Re: My opinion ....

Depends when and where you do the training. When I took mine, the Instructor had a hoot taking trainee instructors out with us, as in his words, I was 'taking the lessons years after you gained the knowledge'. I'd booked one on one training, despite extra cost, as I knew I'd be challenged faced with others on board who weren't entirely up to speed, and I know under those circumstances I wouldn't get the best out of training. Still learnt a lot, but the trainee instuctors learnt a lot more at my expense! <g>
 

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