Chain stopper - how to fit / use?

[bluedragon]

I've just bought a chain stopper from Jimmy Green to act as a ratchet when hauling in the chain by hand.

The problem is I don't see how this is going to work with the angle of pull involved. When used with a horizontal pull (such as from a windlass) the function is clear and it will take the chain load on the flap once the pulling tension is released. But with manual hauling in the standing position, the angle from the bow roller to pulling position will be some 25-45 degrees from the horizontal. If I feed the chain under the flap, the pull angle will apply from there and potentially create a lot of friction and possibly jam. Have I missed the point here somewhere? Do others use these devices for hand-hauling chain? Where do you fit them and how do you use them?

 

[ccscott49]

I dont believe it will make a very good ratchet, for the reasons you state, thats why I thought it would be more useful for me for a chain stopper in front of a winch, if you dont want it, I'll buy it off you, as long as its cheap!

 

[john_morris_uk]

We have one very similar just in front of the windlass. I suspect that I would only use it in anger if the windlass fails and I can't raise the chain with the winch handle in the windlass in its approved manual over-ride method and I need to pull the chain up using a length of line to a primary winch.

If you notice how manu ifs and implied ifs there are in the above sentence, you will have worked out that I don't really use the thing. (I take the strain off the windlass when we are at anchor with a length of nylon line and a chain hook onto the chain.)

I am still glad that its fitted, but it usually sits there with its 'ratchet' part in the locker above the chart table.

 

[Poignard]

I bought one of these but have never fitted it. I wanted to use it purely as a ratchet to temporarily hold the chain when sailing the anchor out single-handed, so I could nip back to the cockpit to tack. Much quicker than belaying the chain round a cleat or with a chain hook. [Eric Hiscock recommended a ratchet, so that's good enough for me]. I have never worked out exactly where to fit it, ideally it needs to be as far forward as possible for the reasons you give but there isn't much room there. One of these days I'll get the stemhead fitting modified to incorporate a ratchet, that would be the neatest option, I think.

 

[Anonymous]

Have you ever tried it as a ratchet? I thought that bluedragon made an important point that a man standing on the deck will be pulling the chain up against the ratchet - will it slide over? Intuitively it doesn't look as though it would.

 

[Robin]

We could have used one of those! Our Horizon 1500 windlass decided to play up and drop all the chain out as it was almost in and I had to pull up 50m of 10mm plus the anchor 5 b...dy times. Our foredeck cleats are behind the anchor well so you can't take a quick turn on them for a rest. Bretons learned some new vocabulary over the last few weeks.

If anyone wants to sell their chain stopper if it is for 10mm chain I'd be interested as it would have been useful.

 

[Clyde_Wanderer]

Why dont you get a wedge shape spacer made in s/s which you would bolt the ratchet to and bolt the wedge to the deck. Something like the metal choks for trailer/caravan wheels etc
It could even be made from hard wood and bolted right through.
It would allow you to decide on the angle of chain lead between the ratchet and a comfrtable hand height for handballing the chain, which will depend on the angle of the wedge.

 

[Anonymous]

Yours is a similar sort of design to my Lofrans, I think. What caused the problem that it should drop the chain? The idea of that happening once is horrendous, twice is incredible but five times? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[bluedragon]

[ QUOTE ]
Why dont you get a wedge shape spacer made in s/s which you would bolt the ratchet to and bolt the wedge to the deck. Something like the metal choks for trailer/caravan wheels etc
It could even be made from hard wood and bolted right through.
It would allow you to decide on the angle of chain lead between the ratchet and a comfrtable hand height for handballing the chain, which will depend on the angle of the wedge.

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea of the wood block did occur to me...but a S/S frame sounds better. Worth a thought.

 

[bluedragon]

[ QUOTE ]
We could have used one of those! Our Horizon 1500 windlass decided to play up and drop all the chain out as it was almost in and I had to pull up 50m of 10mm plus the anchor 5 b...dy times. Our foredeck cleats are behind the anchor well so you can't take a quick turn on them for a rest. Bretons learned some new vocabulary over the last few weeks.

If anyone wants to sell their chain stopper if it is for 10mm chain I'd be interested as it would have been useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking of returning it to Jimmy Green (or selling) but as I'm becoming more convinced about a windlass, I think I'll hang onto this for the reasons you state. It does fit 8 and 10mm chain by the way. Not too pricey either (£29) and is a really solid piece of kit.

 

[Robin]

We had a Lofrans Cayman on our last boat and I rate it highly. Our current boat came with the Horizon 1500 which had worked fine until recently.

We always power down and up rather than use the clutch to drop the chain but a corroded connection stopped power down working. With hindsight I should have left the clutch alone but I didn't, I made sure it would release if needed and also released and retightened the torque key bolt that allows the manual feature to work as well. Having sorted the corroded connection, manual use was no longer needed but when using the power up next time the chain built up and jammed (as it does, not enough drop) but the manual release bolt (left hand threaded with a tiny tufnol type cone clutch washer) unwound itself, released the gypsy and bingo drop all the chain back down, fast enough not to risk a foot trying to stop it! After that I tried to tighten the bolt more but the torque key supplied fitted to the control handle, stored in clips in the well, was mild steel and had pretty well disolved. I used an allen key but this burred the socket in the bolt head and again it came undone and dropped the chain. I then removed the washer cone and reassembled the bolt with Loctite (who needs manual operation, too slow and harder than hand hauling) and this worked well for a few more anchorings. However at 6am off St Evette on our way home it decided to wipe the smug grin off my face and again dropped the lot to the bottom, even with the rope snubber I'd rigged to yank on and act as a brake which at least stopped it at 50m and kept the last 15m in the locker!

I think our problem is in a set of winch pawls behind the gypsy that are not holding, the load then goes onto the bolt of the manual system release and undoes it. If I had spare on board I would have dismantled it but decided it would wait until we got home, as it was we didn't need it after the last 'drop'.

I've yet to ring Lewmar to discuss it, but at the very least I need a new torque key, manual release bolt and clutch cone, new pawls and springs and maybe a pawl carrier as the bolt thread stripped on the last haul so the thread might have gone in the pawl carrier also. If these spares are remotely pricey then I might well ditch the windlass in favour of another Cayman.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking of returning it to Jimmy Green (or selling) but as I'm becoming more convinced about a windlass, I think I'll hang onto this for the reasons you state. It does fit 8 and 10mm chain by the way. Not too pricey either (£29) and is a really solid piece of kit.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was worth a try! I had already looked it up on Jimmy Green's site and I think I'll be ordering one. I think I will need to remove the flapper to allow the anchor to sit in the bow roller once fully hauled up but it looks easy enough with I think a drop-nose pin holding it in place. I would need to fit it on a small area just behind the bow roller and in front of the anchor well and I think it might work even hauling by hand albeit with a bit of friction, or it could be flipped up released and not used.

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds like a terrible design - the Lofrans Tigress doesn't look as though it could do that though you do have to remove, clean, grease and inspect the cone clutch each Spring.

Windlass motors often fail so you want to be able to get the chain up manually - the Tigress has a collar adjacent to the warping drum with 6 large holes that take the windlass handle for raising by hand e.g. if the motor fails, or battery is low. You put the handle (a piece of SS tube about 1m long) into a hole and move if fore and aft; a ratchet inches the chain up each time you move the handle. I would never, ever, consider hauling the chain by hand, it simply isn't necessary with the Tigress. It would be far too dangerous in bad conditions, as well. If you are replacing the windlass, why not get one that allows manual operation? It also gives finer control than electric for finally getting the anchor home.

On the Tigress, the pawl doesn't engage automatically (at least it doesn't on mine and I didn't have it from new) but you can nudge it into place when you want it. It might be the same with yours?

 

[rogerthebodger]

The design of the jimmy green chain stopper is OK but its position fitted just before the windlass is not for the reasons you state.

On my new yacht I have includes a chain stopper plate pivoted on the chain retaining pin at the head of the and above bow roller which allows the chain to be pulled by someone standing about a metre from the bow roller without the angle effecting the operation of the chain stopper.

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever tried it as a ratchet? I thought that bluedragon made an important point that a man standing on the deck will be pulling the chain up against the ratchet - will it slide over? Intuitively it doesn't look as though it would.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes I have - in a quick experimental sort of way. It didn't appear to work very well with someone pulling the chain up by hand - but our anchor chain is pretty difficult to pull up by hand anyway! If the windlass failed, I suspect that I would end up using a rolling hitch and line to a primary winch, as I mentioned in my first post.

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I will need to remove the flapper to allow the anchor to sit in the bow roller once fully hauled up but it looks easy enough with I think a drop-nose pin holding it in place. I would need to fit it on a small area just behind the bow roller and in front of the anchor well and I think it might work even hauling by hand albeit with a bit of friction, or it could be flipped up released and not used.


[/ QUOTE ] Robin, Ours has a 'removable' pin. The pin has a sprung ball bearing in its nose and is very secure when pushed through. I have got a spare pin and body if you want - but no flapper thing. (The flapper thing was missing when we bought the boat and I eventually found a complete identical one in a french chandlery for a few euros, so I have used the flapper from the new one on the old body already on the boat.)

 

[bluedragon]

[ QUOTE ]
The design of the jimmy green chain stopper is OK but its position fitted just before the windlass is not for the reasons you state.

On my new yacht I have includes a chain stopper plate pivoted on the chain retaining pin at the head of the and above bow roller which allows the chain to be pulled by someone standing about a metre from the bow roller without the angle effecting the operation of the chain stopper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I came to the same conclusion. That is the correct place for one. Unfortunately the Jimmy Green type isn't easily mountable / adaptable in that way (on our boat anyway).

 

[jimbaerselman]

[ QUOTE ]
Do others use these devices for hand-hauling chain? Where do you fit them and how do you use them?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes. Used to use one on a Rival 34 - no winch. Different design though - mine was a cam, position controlled by a lever, which could be used to check and slow chain when it was running out as well as acting as hauling lock.

This looks a much less flexible solution, useful for hauling only, and requiring a wedge mounting. I'd hunt for an alternative design.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
On the Tigress, the pawl doesn't engage automatically (at least it doesn't on mine and I didn't have it from new) but you can nudge it into place when you want it. It might be the same with yours?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a plastic 'pawl' that manually flips over to hold the gypsy whilst the clutch nut is tightened, our Lofrans on the last boat had a metal one similar to that and I believe that is what you are thinking of. However the pawl(s) I think that have failed in this instance are like sheet winch pawls in a carrier on the shaft between the casing and the gypsy. There is another one on the manual mechanism too but that I know is working. I didn't dismantle it all to investigate as I had no spares to replace anything found and I preferred to wait until back home on our berth. Initially it seemed to be the left handed bolt holding the manual mechanism in place with a simple 10mm dia cone clutch in the seat where it screws in, this bolt simply came undone once there was load on the chain pulling it up, especially if the chain jammed as it does occasionally when it piles up in the well.

Personally I think the manual facility is an unnecessary complication. It operates on a 1:1 power ratio with a short lever so very slow indeed and of use IMO only to break out a stuck anchor and this can be done by other means. I hauled ours in by hand under no load other than it's own weight whilst SWMBO kept the boat in position with the chain vertical, that way you lift just the weight of the water depth of chain plus the anchor weight. The problem on our foredeck, which is similar to many with the windlass mounted in a well with a lifting lid, is that the foredeck cleats are aft of the lid and behind anyone hauling chain by hand, hence nowhere to take a quick turn for a break if load comes on the chain again. On our last boat the windlass was mounted on the foredeck and the cleats were ahead of the windlass, easy enough to snatch a quick turn on. We were anchoring this year mostly in depths no more than 10m at HW so in theory the max weight to lift was 10m of chain + the Delta.

I'm hoping now we are on our regular berth again that I can dismantle the Horizon and replace the damaged bits. I know the LH threaded bolt was stripped as I cut the stripped bit off in an attempt to get it to work, which it did for a time but it might also be stripped in the bit it screws into as well, the whole thing spun free as the chain dropped and the bolt undid all the way!

The Lofrans Tigres is the same as the Cayman we fitted on our last boat and I was very happy with that, neither of them have this LH bolt to be released to allow manual use ratcheting. The silly piece of design is that the torque key for the bolt is stored in the end of the manual/clutch release handle and this of course is normally stored in clips in the anchor well. Unfortunately the mild steel of the torque key just disolves away! I used a set of allen keys but eventually droped the one that was best which bounced once on the inflatable stowed on deck before springboarding overboard.... It mattered little as the key slot was damaged and not tightening enough anyway so mark 2 bodge was mole grips.

 

[Robin]

[ QUOTE ]
Robin, Ours has a 'removable' pin. The pin has a sprung ball bearing in its nose and is very secure when pushed through. I have got a spare pin and body if you want - but no flapper thing. (The flapper thing was missing when we bought the boat and I eventually found a complete identical one in a french chandlery for a few euros, so I have used the flapper from the new one on the old body already on the boat.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks John but I think I need the whole bit. I looked in all the French chandlers and have their catalogues but couldn't find one so you were lucky. I think the Jimmy Green one is the same as yours and the pin is as yours too so it would be easy enough to remove the flapper at the last moment to allow the anchor shank to sit in place for it's final stowage.

We still anchored out 15 nights out of 35 this trip so on the basis of say £25 per night not paid to marinas the saving of £375 makes anchoring cost effective even with the occasional windlass repair bill! Not that we anchor merely to save money (but it helps) just simply because we like to stay out in the nice spots. I dread to think what 35 nights spent in UK marinas would have cost!