CE Marking

[Greg2]

Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of getting CE marking on a non-EU produced boat? My research so far reveals that this is a complicated subject!

Looking at a 2005 built boat shipped from the US to the UK/EU within the last five or six years as part of an extended cruising programme by the owner. Having completed their cruising plans the boat is on the market in the EU (not UK) and at some point VAT has been paid but the boat has no CE marking. My reading is that it should have CE to be sold, which would probably be doable but I have also read that current CE regs would apply as opposed to those applicable in 1995. Main issue here is engine (Yanmar), which if my reading is right, would have to comply with 2019 emission regs as opposed to 2005 regs. A quick Google search indicates that the model in question is not on the current compliant list.

Am I on the right track here in terms of my reading of the situation?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

CE Proof would be a good start http://www.ceproof.com/ce-marking to find out whether its doable and how much it will cost

Yes I believe that current CE regulations would apply but CE Proof will know better. If you didnt CE mark the boat, there is no CE Police wandering about trying to catch offenders so very likely you'll never be caught out. However, you might be voiding your insurance and you will have more difficulty reselling the boat without a CE certificate

 

[Beamishken]

I imported our 2006 regal from the states about 7 or 8 years ago & used CE proof to obtain ce marking for it. The engine emissions was an issue then however I was installing new "old stock" yanmar 6lps which weren't on the list even then. I think we got around it because the engines were already in the UK which took them out of the equasion.
Prehaps you could (in theory) re engine with a couple of locally sourced identical engines.��

 

[Greg2]

Thanks, I will give ceproof a try. I am thinking that a re-engine might actually be necessary to get CE. Not necessarily prohibitive because it is a low-ish hp single engine but would need to be reflected in the selling price.

 

[Rickard]

You don´t need CE
This only needed when a business sells a boat and not private

 

[Sticky Fingers]

^ Not what I found when I sold my 2017 yacht via a broker, this was a few weeks ago. I had to provide the CE certificate. Which was easy as I had it.

 

[Elessar]

You don´t need CE
This only needed when a business sells a boat and not private

this isnt true. Only privately built boats are exempt and even then you have to own them for a certain amount of time after build.
My american import had to be CE marked, even though it was a model you could buy here.

edit - rules here.
https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/recreational-craft-directive.aspx
you need a CE mark if a home built boat is put on the market within 5 years of completion.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Ah that's helpful to see the details, cheers.

 

[Greg2]

Thanks for all the comments. I am reasonably happy that CE is required and that current rules would apply.
An interesting discovery re VAT status as it transpires that the owners moved from outside the EU to the UK as as a possession the vessel was VAT exempt and this is a permanent state of affairs. Wasn’t aware of this particular exemption.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Don't think that's right either, I think that VAT and import duty is due on the import...? Might be wrong.
https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/vat.aspx

... interesting discovery re VAT status as it transpires that the owners moved from outside the EU to the UK as as a possession the vessel was VAT exempt and this is a permanent state of affairs. Wasn’t aware of this particular exemption.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I've now read the detailed VAT guidance. I'm no expert but this seems reasonably clear:

RYA QUESTION
In what circumstances is UK VAT payable on a private pleasure vessel?

HMRC Answer
VAT is payable on a private pleasure vessel when a“chargeable event” occurs. This could be:
1. When a vessel is supplied in the course of business by a taxable person who is (or should be) registered for VAT.
2. When a vessel is imported into the UK from a place outside the EU, and the importer is not eligible for a relief of charges, import VAT must be paid by the person or business importing the vessel. This includes cases where the vessel is imported by rail, cargo ship or trailer.
3. When a UK resident buys a new vessel VAT free in another EU Member State under the ‘new means of transport’ arrangements, the vessel must be declared on arrival and UK VAT paid.

UK Customs cannot accept a VAT payment unless there is a chargeable event within the UK jurisdiction. Proof that VAT was paid must be retained to ensure that the VAT paid status of the vessel can, if necessary, be proved. This could be the original invoice / receipt or, in the case of an import, the import documentation showing payment of import VAT and any customs duty.

 

[Greg2]

Don't think that's right either, I think that VAT and import duty is due on the import...? Might be wrong.
https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/vat.aspx

Well I was dubious and pressed the Broker on the subject but he was adamant. He subsequently sent me a copy of a letter from HMRC referring to a Transfer of Residence Form being enclosed to prove that the vessel is vat exempt. It also says to keep it safe and pass it on to any new owner. I haven’t seen the form yet but the Broker assures me that he has it.

I also looked up the vat rules for bringing possessions and a car into the country on moving here and the vehicle is vat exempt if kept for personal use and not sold within a specified period, so the situation with the boat is also consistent with this. I guess the key thing is that the boat is an existing possession of the person moving from outside the EU to the EU.

Looking at the FAQ on the link from the RYA page it tends to confirm this at first pass - I think point 2 in your post above applies inasmuch as there must be eligibility for relief. Any subsequent transaction wouldn’t be a chargeable event if it is a private sale.

Needless to say I will get absolute confirmation if we progress further than our current interest.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Where are you seeing this? There's no reference to 'transfer of residence' in the doc AFAICS

CORRECTION Just found it. Am reading it now.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

OK found it. Might be OK ref VAT and Duty...!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk

Form:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-for-transfer-of-residence-tor-relief-tor01

Original importing owner has to apply.

 

[Greg2]

OK found it. Might be OK ref VAT and Duty...!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk

Form:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-for-transfer-of-residence-tor-relief-tor01

Original importing owner has to apply.

I hadn’t got as far as tracking these pages down so thanks for that. It appears implicit that the vat exemption endures because vat must be paid on possessions if they are sold within 12 months so after that no vat. In the case it seems that the owner made the application and has the relevant paperwork.

Every day is a school day!

 

[EugeneR]

Done CE a few times now. Quotes ranged from £600 to £6000 for the same outcome.

 

[Greg2]

Done CE a few times now. Quotes ranged from £600 to £6000 for the same outcome.

Blimey, that is quite a price range! Any recommendations on who to use or tips on what is involved?

 

[rafiki_]

Blimey, that is quite a price range! Any recommendations on who to use or tips on what is involved?

CE Proof will do the hull Approvals, but the power train is more difficult, and the best thing is to get a cert from the engine manufacturer as the cert testing is done on a test bed. It is not viable for you to do your own engine as it will need to be removed, fitted to a test bed then tested and refitted to your boat. You are probably talking north of £30k. A bespoke test rig will be needed, design and build. There is also pass by noise testing required. CE Proof will tell you all about this.

 

[Greg2]

CE Proof will do the hull Approvals, but the power train is more difficult, and the best thing is to get a cert from the engine manufacturer as the cert testing is done on a test bed. It is not viable for you to do your own engine as it will need to be removed, fitted to a test bed then tested and refitted to your boat. You are probably talking north of £30k. A bespoke test rig will be needed, design and build. There is also pass by noise testing required. CE Proof will tell you all about this.

Blimey, £30k to test the engine?!
Cheaper to just buy a new one compliant with current regs - it is only a small hp job!

I am thinking that it may be a costly exercise as a new engine could actually be reality because the current one meets 2006 EU regs but I suspect not current regs. I am not sure that the vendor will be prepared to compromise sufficiently on price. Mind you they have a problem with it being for sale in the EU with no CE certification.

 

[rafiki_]

Blimey, £30k to test the engine?!
Cheaper to just buy a new one compliant with current regs - it is only a small hp job!

I am thinking that it may be a costly exercise as a new engine could actually be reality because the current one meets 2006 EU regs but I suspect not current regs. I am not sure that the vendor will be prepared to compromise sufficiently on price. Mind you they have a problem with it being for sale in the EU with no CE certification.

Are you sure the engine has to meet today’s regs? From an automotive basis, the regs are applied from the build date, not retrospectively. For example, if you imported a 2000 year Mustang, it will not meet today’s emission regs, and this is ok.