BOATKID
Well-Known Member
will castrol GTX Diesel oil be okay for 20 year old cummins 4BT turbo engines
castrol gtx oil- urgent
- Thread starter BOATKID
- Start date
gordmac
Well-Known Member
I would have thought so but have you checked the manufacturers spec against the oil spec?
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
My engines are Cummins 6BTA's, marinised by Thornycroft and looking at the manual prepared by Thornycroft it covers both 4 and 6 cylinder, turbo and normally aspirated engines listed as types 238 and 358 and this is what it has to say about oil viscosity:
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tinkicker0
Well-Known Member
As far as oil performance, modern GTX will be of far higher spec than oil of 20 years ago. Oil specification designators change and the new designator automatically includes all the protection qualities of the old designator, plus some improvements.
Not an oil expert or blender, just a guy who gets oily fingernails for a living, but AFAIK
Been out of the diesel game a good few years now, so not in the slightest current on em, but for instance: Petrol engine oil. The new designator is SM, which has all the attributes of the old SG and SJ, but with better emission characteristics, durability and wear inhibition.
HOWEVER, I hear that oil intended for marine engines has some additives intended to combat salt contamination. So it really depends how often you change it, where and how you use your boat.
Edit now I have a little more time.
Should state for the record though, that the best oil would be exactly the same make and grade specified by the manufacturer. It has been extensively tested.
Oil, like everything else in an engine is a bit of a compromise. It may be excellent at protecting say, the cam and followers, yet merely ok at protecting the rings. Another brand might be good for rings, yet the cam followers might start to scuff.
I have come across engine issues such as I have described that could only attributed to the oil, last one I came across was severe cylinder glazing caused by synthetic oil in an old motor with comparatively low power, light loading and suspected low piston ring wall pressure caused by non OEM piston rings.
Burned 2 gallons of oil a day, that one, till we took a peek inside.
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Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Just a point to bear in mind. Don't use an oil with a lower (bottom-end) viscosity range than required. I used some 10-30w in a (road-going) turbo diesel when it should have had 15-40w.
Not a great deal of difference you may think. Well the oil pissed out from the crankshaft oil seal behind the flywheel. Changing back to the required oil solved it.
Not a great deal of difference you may think. Well the oil pissed out from the crankshaft oil seal behind the flywheel. Changing back to the required oil solved it.
VicS
Well-Known Member
GTX Diesel would be my choice.
It is a 10W40 oil and I would disagree with LS. I'd say match the high temp viscosity figure rather than the low temp figure. It is at operating temperature that you want the correct viscosity. If seals leak then replacement is the correct remedy, not thicker oil.
It also complies with the API CF spec which and be used in place of the now obsolete CD spec'd oils
It is a 10W40 oil and I would disagree with LS. I'd say match the high temp viscosity figure rather than the low temp figure. It is at operating temperature that you want the correct viscosity. If seals leak then replacement is the correct remedy, not thicker oil.
It also complies with the API CF spec which and be used in place of the now obsolete CD spec'd oils
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
GTX suitable no.
Manuafacturers specs are real simple, bit like computers RTFM.
Cummins Recommended oil Viscosity Grades
Cummins' primary recommendation is for the use of 15W-40 multigrade for normal operation at ambient temperatures above -15°C [5°F].
Standard oil for engines without EGR in all parts of the world API¹ CH-4 Global ie outside North America DHD-1² ACEA³ E-5.
We are in Europe and yet still seem wedded to API classifications. Our classification is ACEA European Automoblie Manufacturers Association, if we stick to this life is simple.
Using an a 15W40 to ACEA E5 gives you the comfort that the oil you are using automatically meets the separate manufacturers approvals without looking at the small print. For example an oil to ACEA E5 has the correct Cummins CES standard built in, API CH4 different manufacturers are tacked on, Cummins CES. Volvo VDS, Mack E7 and so on.
Castrol GTX is ACEA A3/B3, thefore totally unsuitable, besides being incorrect viscosity. You will also note that the oil meets Mercedes 229.1. It is unlikely that any oil meeting this standard will preclude its use in a Cummins engine due to its inability to cope with top ring temperatures, leading to rapid bore wear.
The last point is cost, why even consider a boutique LDA (Light Duty Automotive) oil in a heavy duty engine. Any commercial or agricultural factor will sell you a 20 Litre tub of 15W40 ACEA E5 for far less than purchasing fancy car lubes over the counter of Halfords. Truck operators and farmers are more cost and quaity concious than car owners.
Also keeping life simple ask parts factor for Fleetguard oil filter for 6B not 4B. The 6B filter has greater capacity and the filter head is identical. The 4B filter was INTENDED to be less expensive, however because of the huge aftermarket to support DAF trucks and Dennis buses the 6B filter is always on the shelf and actually cheaper, should be less than a fiver.
Manuafacturers specs are real simple, bit like computers RTFM.
Cummins Recommended oil Viscosity Grades
Cummins' primary recommendation is for the use of 15W-40 multigrade for normal operation at ambient temperatures above -15°C [5°F].
Standard oil for engines without EGR in all parts of the world API¹ CH-4 Global ie outside North America DHD-1² ACEA³ E-5.
We are in Europe and yet still seem wedded to API classifications. Our classification is ACEA European Automoblie Manufacturers Association, if we stick to this life is simple.
Using an a 15W40 to ACEA E5 gives you the comfort that the oil you are using automatically meets the separate manufacturers approvals without looking at the small print. For example an oil to ACEA E5 has the correct Cummins CES standard built in, API CH4 different manufacturers are tacked on, Cummins CES. Volvo VDS, Mack E7 and so on.
Castrol GTX is ACEA A3/B3, thefore totally unsuitable, besides being incorrect viscosity. You will also note that the oil meets Mercedes 229.1. It is unlikely that any oil meeting this standard will preclude its use in a Cummins engine due to its inability to cope with top ring temperatures, leading to rapid bore wear.
The last point is cost, why even consider a boutique LDA (Light Duty Automotive) oil in a heavy duty engine. Any commercial or agricultural factor will sell you a 20 Litre tub of 15W40 ACEA E5 for far less than purchasing fancy car lubes over the counter of Halfords. Truck operators and farmers are more cost and quaity concious than car owners.
Also keeping life simple ask parts factor for Fleetguard oil filter for 6B not 4B. The 6B filter has greater capacity and the filter head is identical. The 4B filter was INTENDED to be less expensive, however because of the huge aftermarket to support DAF trucks and Dennis buses the 6B filter is always on the shelf and actually cheaper, should be less than a fiver.
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VicS
Well-Known Member
The quoted manual does not refer to ACEA specifications so please explain two things:
Why if the manual calls for an oil to API CC + CD specs (both now obsolete) an oil to API CF spec (Said to be suitable in place of CD oils) is totally unsuitable.
Why a 10W40 oil is the incorrect viscosity. Surely it has the same viscosity at 210F, namely that of an SAE40 oil and by virtue of being 10W instead of 15W passes certain low temperature test criteria at a lower temperature.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Oil specs
Oil specs are somthing always subject to change, no point in looking at a manual which was applicable 20 years ago, that is why no mention of ACEA. Always look on manufacturers websites for current data.
CC+CD has long been obsoleted by CH4, life moves on. CF4 oils to ACEA E3 for diesel engines is almost third world stuff, only for territories where API CH4 is not available, so what is the point? CC+CD IS NO LONGER approved even if you could still get it.
Why would you want to pay a higer price for an effectively lower spec i.e a CF4 oil when you can get the correct oil at a lower price??
10W40 oils generally have have directionally thinner oil film than 15W40 and are much more sensitive to temperature and shear. If you feel that you have to use 10W40 then it MUST meet Cummins CES20076 and Mack E7 tests, or you are into piston ring and cylinder bore problems, and I am not sure such an oil exists. Unlikely that there is a 10W40 blended that is to CH4/ACEA E5 so we are disscussing semantics.
Why bugger about best guessing what you think may work when the manufacturer prints requirement in black and white. It really is as simple as that.
If you feel you HAVE to have Castrol oil then the correct brand is Tection 15W40
List of approvels is as long as your arm ACEA E3,5 and 7 API CH4.
Plus most manufacturers engineering approvals
Oil specs are somthing always subject to change, no point in looking at a manual which was applicable 20 years ago, that is why no mention of ACEA. Always look on manufacturers websites for current data.
CC+CD has long been obsoleted by CH4, life moves on. CF4 oils to ACEA E3 for diesel engines is almost third world stuff, only for territories where API CH4 is not available, so what is the point? CC+CD IS NO LONGER approved even if you could still get it.
Why would you want to pay a higer price for an effectively lower spec i.e a CF4 oil when you can get the correct oil at a lower price??
10W40 oils generally have have directionally thinner oil film than 15W40 and are much more sensitive to temperature and shear. If you feel that you have to use 10W40 then it MUST meet Cummins CES20076 and Mack E7 tests, or you are into piston ring and cylinder bore problems, and I am not sure such an oil exists. Unlikely that there is a 10W40 blended that is to CH4/ACEA E5 so we are disscussing semantics.
Why bugger about best guessing what you think may work when the manufacturer prints requirement in black and white. It really is as simple as that.
If you feel you HAVE to have Castrol oil then the correct brand is Tection 15W40
List of approvels is as long as your arm ACEA E3,5 and 7 API CH4.
Plus most manufacturers engineering approvals
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VicS
Well-Known Member
And the link to what the manufacturer currently prints in black and white for that engine is ???????
barfly4657
N/A
Wot oil wot??
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Correct oil
Just log into https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html
Put in your engine serial # and you get everything when you register, you may view information specific to your engine, including: Owners manual, the parts catalogue for your specific engine serial number, Engine dataplate Information and up to date service topics.
Free........
Just log into https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html
Put in your engine serial # and you get everything when you register, you may view information specific to your engine, including: Owners manual, the parts catalogue for your specific engine serial number, Engine dataplate Information and up to date service topics.
Free........
lw395
Well-Known Member
It also pays to remember that manufacturers have often in the past recommended oils for commercial rather than technical reasons. For instance BSA recommended castrol at one time in return for virtually getting it free. I don't think engine makers exhaustively test every possible oil at every stage of engine life. Also oil recipes will change over time as additives improve/get banned, emission rules change etc.
Whatever you choose, some one will have valid sounding reasons for why you are wrong!
tinkicker's post is one of the few convincing anecdotes against synth's IMHO, and that is possibly due to the rings anyway.
My personal opinion (not advice!) Go for a make you have heard of, go for a widely specified multigrade with a high synthetic content. Change it often, if you intend to keep the engine for many years, or if it's 'precious metal' like a bike! If its a heap like my car, then semi-synth from GSF is cheap enough.
The higher cost of 'good' oil is small change at the Ducati spares counter.
Whatever you choose, some one will have valid sounding reasons for why you are wrong!
tinkicker's post is one of the few convincing anecdotes against synth's IMHO, and that is possibly due to the rings anyway.
My personal opinion (not advice!) Go for a make you have heard of, go for a widely specified multigrade with a high synthetic content. Change it often, if you intend to keep the engine for many years, or if it's 'precious metal' like a bike! If its a heap like my car, then semi-synth from GSF is cheap enough.
The higher cost of 'good' oil is small change at the Ducati spares counter.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
I am amazed and appalled by such a display downright stupidity and narrow minded and deliberate blindness to ensuring the continued health and protection of a valuable asset.
Engine manufacturers gain nothing from the engineering approvals that they lay down. The challenge is for the lubricant suppliers to provide, IF THEY CAN a range of one size fits all lubricants. That is lube suppliers payback. The cost of a lubricant is no guarantee of suitability. The engine builder obtains no royalties from oil spec they lay down. Ultimate engine life and lowest cost of ownership is called competitive advantage, that is engine manufacturers target.
Example; use of expensive fully synthetic 10W40 oil formulated to meet to Mercedes 229.1 spec in your Yanmar 6LP motor which specifies a 15W40 CF grade mineral oil at a quarter or the cost will result scuffed bores and excessive blow-by before engine gets to 500 hours. I have seen it. Use inexpensive oil of a decent brand and to the correct specification, engine lives to 5,000 hours and beyond.
Why does such a simple concept appear so alien??????
Engine manufacturers gain nothing from the engineering approvals that they lay down. The challenge is for the lubricant suppliers to provide, IF THEY CAN a range of one size fits all lubricants. That is lube suppliers payback. The cost of a lubricant is no guarantee of suitability. The engine builder obtains no royalties from oil spec they lay down. Ultimate engine life and lowest cost of ownership is called competitive advantage, that is engine manufacturers target.
Example; use of expensive fully synthetic 10W40 oil formulated to meet to Mercedes 229.1 spec in your Yanmar 6LP motor which specifies a 15W40 CF grade mineral oil at a quarter or the cost will result scuffed bores and excessive blow-by before engine gets to 500 hours. I have seen it. Use inexpensive oil of a decent brand and to the correct specification, engine lives to 5,000 hours and beyond.
Why does such a simple concept appear so alien??????
adey
Well-Known Member
As I understand it 10W means it will be less viscous at lower temperatures and since marine engines run at lower revs and cylinder temperatures than car engines the viscosity won't be correct for marine use.
Eg. My 5.0 petrol Mercruiser is similar to the 5.0 Chevrolet car engine. The car version can use 10W40 but the marinised version needs 25W40.
I'm no oil expert so I'd use what the manufacturer recommends and nothing else.
Eg. My 5.0 petrol Mercruiser is similar to the 5.0 Chevrolet car engine. The car version can use 10W40 but the marinised version needs 25W40.
I'm no oil expert so I'd use what the manufacturer recommends and nothing else.
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benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Thx for the link, Latestarter. Glad to see that my serial no.s check out and there is an up-to-date manual online there. As ever your Cummins knowledge is unrivalled.
