Carrying VAT paid documentary proof

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Just had the German Zoll pop round 5 minutes ago and go very carefuly through ship's docs to verify country of build and proof of VAT paid, including original builder's invoice showing VAT, Bill of Sale and registration certificate.

Luckily I had it all on board /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif (smug pause)

Does this often happen, and does everyone always carry these docs - presumably it could happen in the UK as easily as in Germany?
 
Did they actually ask for all that, or did they check through what you had available and showed to them?

I ask because in France I was asked for ship's papers and just showed the SSR certificate - that was fine.

The guy on the next berth had a portfolio of every possible document - they went through it and that was fine too. A guy without an SSR was marched off to the cashpoint!
 
No they specifically asked for these documents. Or rather, they asked for Bill of Sale first of all, then asked asked to see all other documents that I had showing proof that the boat was VAT paid, when built and where.

They didn't ask for more general ship's papers (and I didn't offer them), nor were they interested in immigration docs, only import duty on the boat.
 
Yep happened to me once in ????years and they even checked if the fares were in date, liferaft service date, number of lkifejackets, fire extinguishers in date...very thorough, and they had a big grey boat with guns. That was in Lorient.
 
Was stopped coming across the Thames estuary last summer by two guys sweating profusely in black drysuits with a jet powered rib. They asked for exactly that, and passports. Then asked why I'd been in Tanzania. Apparently "to look at the animals" is not a valid response!
 
What did you do?

...You didn't mention the war did you?

You must have done something to make them dislike you!

In my experience, Douanniers, Zoll, Port Police, whatever cannot be relied upon to behave the same way in two otherwise identical sets of circumstances.

I can remember going into Cherbourg for the first time in 1973 and seeing a smart dapper little chap in a blue uniform using broken english and gesticulations to get everyone to "pull down ze pavillion d'or ("Q" flags). Then about seven years ago in some Brittany town up a canal (the one with the massive viaduct) we had an official wanting to go through anything and everything. On another occasion we got buzzed by a chopper and then boarded 3nm north of the Fort de l'ouest. Apart from those instances, in nearly 30 years of cruising france we didn't get asked for a single paper, anytime.

In Greece now, you can get the downright officious who insists on you clearing in on arrival at some tiny port and waiting until the morning of departure before clearing out and then on your waiting the obligatory one hour before actually casting off. Others walk around writing down the names of boats and do nothing. Some invite you to go to their office "now" or " maybe sometime before you leave". One place I know the Port Policeman seems to resent any inexperienced British charterer foolish enough to waste his time getting needless forms filled in. The whole thing seems to be a lottery.

Some people will tell you that this is because the officials are worried about redundencies following Schengen and occasionally leap into action to justify their existence. I don't know the reason but it IS best to be prepared and equipped.

Steve Cronin
 
So maybe it's not so unusual. In the past they have always just been happy with registration certificate, passport (though once they searched the ship very thoroughly and read my logbook from end to end) and such like. But I'd never had them interested in the VAT paid status of the yacht before.

I reckoned that their may be quite a few British yachts floating around /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif that don't carry all the Bills of Sale and original builder's invoice, or which may not even be able to prove VAT paid status? It could work out very expensive...
 
Re: What did you do?

I was terribly nice to them - I could see them wandering along the pontoon in the marina, and presumably picked me 'cos of the red ensign. I'd been stopped and checked by the passport guys a few days before, who I was also charming to, and showed these new ones the nice blue certificate of arrival clearance that they'd given me, but that didn't impress, these ones were Customs. They were only interested in boat VAT.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I reckoned that their may be quite a few British yachts floating around /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif that don't carry all the Bills of Sale and original builder's invoice, or which may not even be able to prove VAT paid status? It could work out very expensive...

[/ QUOTE ]
Well how do you prove it if you haven't got the paperwork with the boat when you bought it. I bought mine privately last year, and being 35yrs old or so came with no paperwork. All I have is the receipt for paying him for the boat, nothing else. I have since SSR registered it though. What would they say to me then?
 
That's what I wondered, I don't know, but I suspect that there are many in the same boat (pun groan). Isn't there a rule somewhere that says that you're OK if you can prove that she was bought by private sale in the EU prior to a certain date? Or maybe that's just the RCD Directive I'm thinking of.

Could be a bit of a nasty though to know this is being actively checked up on. And expensive to get it wrong.
 
Theoretically /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif a bill of sale between two UK private citizens should be enough to prove that the VAT status is a matter for HM's Customs & Excise. However, our green , web footed bretheren managed to obtain a derogation ( a French term I think ) that allows them to determine the VAT status of any vessel in their waters.

In practice, unless you arrive somewhere close to a non-EU country you are unlikely to have many problems.

The bottom line is that if you have a suitable piece of paper to show to foreign bureacrats they are highly unlikely to be willing or able to validate it as authentic. If it looks right they would probably be happier than if you had nothing to show them.
 
These two had a long discussions between themselves about whether the Bill of Sale I showed them should be a Bill of Sale or a Bill of Lading. I couldn't understand their German but I could understand them repeating "Bill of Lading" and "Bill of Sale" in an intense little discussion inter se. Maybe they just wanted to exercise their more obscure English vocabulary.

They sniffed at my Part 1 Registration certificate stating she was built in UK, clearly thought it should be one of those proper Part 3 jobbies. In the end only the builder's invoice`listing VAT as paid cheered them up.
 
We got stopped offshore in south of france ,5 miles south of bay of foss ,by a 40ft launch .They demanded to see our papers which we passed over via fishing net.They were returned with a demand for the original of the bill of sale.which we had fortunatelly hidden deep in a cupboard ,preferring to use a copy for harbour use.
 
I think it is a universal problem throughout europe.
The following is from the RYA website [ QUOTE ]
The RYA in conjunction with the BMF is currently negotiating with HM Revenue and Customs and government officials, to see if we can find a solution to the unsatisfactory situation boat owners currently experience when trying to establish or prove the VAT status of a vessel.

The only conclusive proof that a vessel is VAT paid is the original paperwork proving that VAT was paid (either at the time of purchase, importation or in the case of a home built boat, when the materials were purchased).

A vessel’s VAT status is not only important when boats are changing hands, it is VAT paid status that entitles a boat owner to freely cruise the waters of other EU member states without onerous customs formalities.

To further our negotiations we would like to ascertain how frequently the VAT status of an a UK registered vessel is being checked, both in UK waters or when she is visiting the waters of other EU States and whether paperwork such as a Bill of Sale (which proves that the VAT status of the vessel is the business of UK Customs) is being accepted or challenged as unsatisfactory.

Details of the infomation we require and who to send it to are contained in the report form (see related links above).

[/ QUOTE ]

Michael
 
regarding a 35 year old boat - does your bill of sale state the age / year of manufacture, which I guess is 1971? If so then that is a big plus - VAT is not applicable on British boats built before 1973 - that's when we became part of the EU.
 
I have heard it said (and seen it here) that a UK mooring invoice pre the VAT cut off point is supposed to be adequate proof that the boat was in the EU at that point. There does seem to be an enormous fuss over VAT on visiting boats. Is it the usual politics of jealousy exhibited by the socialist EU or is there a massive perceived fraudulent level of boat smuggling and resale?
 
The snag there is that the boat must not only have been built before the relevant date, but must have been in the EC on the date as well. So a simple statement of when a boat was built is not good enough on its own.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have heard it said (and seen it here) that a UK mooring invoice pre the VAT cut off point is supposed to be adequate proof that the boat was in the EU at that point. There does seem to be an enormous fuss over VAT on visiting boats. Is it the usual politics of jealousy exhibited by the socialist EU or is there a massive perceived fraudulent level of boat smuggling and resale?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's just if they can stick you for VAT it is a nice sum of money.
 
I was very interested to read your experience.

I have a letter from the European Commission, Directorate General XXI, Tax Policy, VAT and other turnover taxes, Brussels.

The letter is categorical that "if the boat came directly from another member state where it was in free circulation, then the principle of free movement prevails and no further controls, such as checking if VAT on the boat has previously been paid in another member state, should be exercised in the member state of arrival". It continues, "such controls would in any case be pointless, as there is no taxable event attracting VAT taking place".

I have another letter from the same source saying that the Directorate will take any breaches of the principle of free movement very seriously.

ie The view in Brussels is that Customs Officers do not have the right to demand evidence of VAT payment if you arrive in their country from another EU country.

Yes, arguing this point with a maybe officious customs official might not be what you would choose to do!

I also have 2 letters from the RYA Legal Department who assure me that, even if there were a defect in a boat's VAT provenenance, Customs would have to pursue the original purchaser, not the current owner (I had never heard this argued before, though it is an eminently pragmatic idea).

I have written to HMRC for confirmation of both these points, and, in their usual helpful way, they have not bothered to reply.

If a boat is bought through a Broker, I would think there would be a good case for negligence against the broker if VAT provenenance were later found to be defective (unless you had been told before your purchase, of course).

The RYA, BMIF and HMRC are currently in much needed discussions to clarify the VAT situation for yachts. I think there will be changes to the pre-1985 'deemed VAT paid' status (which is only a UK interpretation, not EU wide), and let's hope they adopt the position mentioned by the RYA (ie, assuming there's no whiff of fraud by the current owner, Customs will chase the original purchaser for any unpaid VAT).
 
As I understand it, in law the uk Customs are obliged to issue a certificate to you that they are satisfied VAT has been paid if you you can present reasonable evidence. The idea originally being to prevent problems with older boats as described. However some years ago they decided they would not -too much bother I suspect. I actually had al etter from them acknowledging the obligation but refusing to do it....another case of our paid servants doing just as they please. Infuriated me, especially the lack of answerability. I've said before -RYA where are you? This is an issue they should kick the government around on....oops ranting again ,glad SWMBO does not read these
 
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