Captains Decisions

[Sailfree]

Now at work we have all probably worked for managers that insisted something is done their way -which was not the best way- that take ther glory for others work - shift the blame for their failure onto subordinates. When did you make a stand and expose the manager for what he was? Probably like me you let it go knowing he would be found out in the end or sought another job elsewhere.

Now I am sure if they were life and death decisions we would become self rightous and state they would have challenged the bad boss but would we?

Without letting the recent events/facts get in the way of a debate if you were the 1st officer when would you overide a Captain when you thought something more dangerous than what you would prefer and it is an opinion as how certain could you be that you would actually hit something. What if you were the helmsman? What if you were the steward?

I am sure that staff that question decisions of managers (and Captains) have a very short career.

As a captain I insist we never cross less than 2mls in front of the bows of a boat going cross channel and I know many of my crew have seen the stuation and thought I was being ultra safe yet some ships do 30knots so thats only 4 mins and if you both turn to miss but turn towards each other etc etc - you can see where I am going... so when do you act if you think the captain is taking a close call and what if it was your job on the line?

I appreciate that at present its media talk but it is alleged that this captain has made some previous close calls. I wonder if the outcome of this will be for cruise companies to instruct that in any situation that could be considered dangerous both the Captain and 1st officer must be confident and agree and in the event of a disagreement the safest option between the two must be followed.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I'm sure somewhere in every shipping line's operation manuals there is info on when a captain should be relieved of command.

I once met a guy who worked in air traffic control in Hong Kong (in the old days of the apartment block dodging approach) who reckoned that a fair number of incidents with Asian airlines where caused the reluctance of the 2 i/c to say anything if the pilot was screwing up, because of the cultural importance of not causing his senior to 'lose face'.

 

[Frankie-H]

I do believe that it is both the moral and also the legal responsibility of a qualified officer to over rule a dangerous decision of his superior. If a more junior crew member were involved, then he would bring the problem to the attention of an other qualified officer, other than the one who made the decision, no matter what his rank.

 

[Resolution]

I do believe that it is both the moral and also the legal responsibility of a qualified officer to over rule a dangerous decision of his superior. If a more junior crew member were involved, then he would bring the problem to the attention of an other qualified officer, other than the one who made the decision, no matter what his rank.

Cripes! And presumably if a junior crew member considers the qualified officer's decision is dangerous, then he should overule it as well?
Who makes the final decision?????

 

[Frankie-H]

Cripes! And presumably if a junior crew member considers the qualified officer's decision is dangerous, then he should overule it as well?
Who makes the final decision?????

The quallified officer. We must hope that, with all the checks in place, such extreem measures will not be necessary but if anybody is that unhappy with the decisions of their superiors, the only solution is to report it. Not brilliant but the only sanction we have at sea. At least it might save lives.

 

[stillwaters]

Cripes! And presumably if a junior crew member considers the qualified officer's decision is dangerous, then he should overule it as well?
Who makes the final decision?????

Good point,the wife will be chipping in next with her tuppenceworth. Can't have that sort of thing aboard,she already thinks she can do it at home!

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Good point,the wife will be chipping in next with her tuppenceworth. Can't have that sort of thing aboard,she already thinks she can do it at home!

Do you not already have a domestic CHIRP system in place, and upward reporting

 

[Kukri]

This is a nice big subject, called Cockpit Resource Management in aviation and Bridge Resource Management, alternatively Maritime Crew Resource Management in shipping.

It originated with the Tenerife 747 collisioni 1977 where the Captain was not Asian but Dutch, it became mandatory in aviation many years ago and it will very soon be mandatory in shipping.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_disaster

I would expect that Costa require their officers to undergo training in it and I suspect a lot of officers will be on refresher courses any minute now.

 

[3Sheets]

Whilst channel hopping through the news channels yesterday - I came across an eyewitness account on France24, from a french lady who was a passenger on board the ship. She said she saw the Captain in the dining room before the collision and he was having his photo taken with fellow passengers, he told them he had to leave as he had some difficult maneovres to make!!!.

She then saw him later sitting in a life boat with a woman, whilst passengers were still waiting to be evacuated.

If the Captain was totally at fault for this whole incident, I can imagine that he would be unable to function once the realisation of what he had done had hit home. He certainly had a nervous twitch when interviewed later.

 

[Hamma]

This is a nice big subject, called Cockpit Resource Management in aviation and Bridge Resource Management, alternatively Maritime Crew Resource Management in shipping....

Actually, on a point of detail - it's Crew Resource Management nowadays. The change was precipitated amongst other events, by Kegworth, where the flight crew were the only people on the plane that didn't know which was the failing engine, and contrived to shut the wrong one down.

The reason I mention it, is that it seems pertinent to the OP's point. Captains are encouraged to canvas facts or opinion from anyone that has or might have, something useful to contribute.

Ultimate responsibility still falls on P1 though - that is why they are there.

 

[nigel1]

The reason I mention it, is that it seems pertinent to the OP's point. Captains are encouraged to canvas facts or opinion from anyone that has or might have, something useful to contribute.

Ultimate responsibility still falls on P1 though - that is why they are there.

Something very similar stated in my Standing Orders, we're all human and make mistakes, but hope to god someone spots them.
Junior and senior mates alike are encouraged to question my decisions, for one thing, its all part of the learning process, and for me, I might get to see something from a different perspective.
However, final decision is mine, if it goes pear shaped, I get the rap.
My worry now is a raft of new legislation and training courses, you cant stop stupid, but you can make it illegal

 

[whipper_snapper]

The Kenya airways crash in Cameroon looks like a classic example of the problem.

The report identified the age difference between the 52-year-old pilot and the 23-year-old first officer as a contributing factor, reports the Associated Press - one of whose reporters was killed in the crash.

The findings speculate that the young first officer was too shy to tell the more senior pilot about the plane's problems after take-off.

I would have linked to the Wikipedia article - but, not today! But essentially it was a total pilot screw-up with a feckless 1st officer who was afraid to challenge the god like figure of the captain.

 

[macd]

It originated with the Tenerife 747 collisioni 1977 where the Captain was not Asian but Dutch, it became mandatory in aviation many years ago and it will very soon be mandatory in shipping.

Ironically, if I remember correctly, KLM never accepted that the pilot was responsible (and thus that they were?).
(I'd have checked this but Wiki is down for 24 hours to raise awareness of the importance of knowledge!)

 

[Hamma]

Ironically, if I remember correctly, KLM never accepted that the pilot was responsible (and thus that they were?).

Not offering any opinion on whether you're wrong or right but, there is no doubt it was the KLM Captain substantially to blame for this one - still the World's worst aviation disaster. He took off with no take-off clearance.

On the subject of F/Os speaking up, it's a tricky environment. Ryanair (who operate a first class training regime) routinely put 350hr FOs in the right hand seat. At that level of experience who's going to see an accident chain building up?

There is also the wider CRM issue. Mistakes happen on the flight deck every single sector. If you are a First Officer, continually pointing out that your Captain has made an error is likely to destroy CRM. That has implications for overall safety. If you are Captain, repeatedly picking up mistakes made by your FO will demoralise them and damage confidence. It's a balancing act.

I've flown with some bloody awful FOs and some unutterable Captains. One needs to modify one's responses and actions accordingly.

There is a broad application to fields like Ships and Surgery, but clearly there are many fundamental differences that should be accounted for.

It's a very interesting subject, in my opinion.