Can't reef won't reef

[Robin]

Can\'t reef won\'t reef

A new TV programme to rival Can't Cook, Won't Cook!

Observations from a breezy upwind sail yesterday back from the Solent to Poole with a steady 20kts consistant TRUE wind and up to 27kts apparent. Very few boats were seen with reefed mains, though many had half rolled genoas, 2 motorsailing with full main and no headsail, 2 motoring with no sail up at all and a lot of boats small and large with full mains and genoas.

Is this because F5 nudging F6 is a good full sail breeze? Is it because the reefing systems are hard/wet/dangerous to use? Is it because they think sailing on their sides scewing up in the gusts is fast? Or what? One we saw had in-mast reefing (not reefed) and roller genoa (no rolls), was sailing on his ear and going sideways fast! By comparison, we had a single reef in the main and some rolls in the genoa, the mainsail traveller was also eased off.

Any comments?


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[jimi]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

I was on a fine reach and ended up with 2 reefs in the main, and a bit of the gennie rolled away and I was sailing quite flat at hull speed overtaking quite a few overcanvassed boats!

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

And the more the boat is pressed the more dangerous it becomes to go on deck (if that is where one has to go) to reef.

Have to say though that at 20 knots gusting 27 we would still be full sail here, maybe some rolls in the genoa if the gusts at all frequent otherwise would luff slightly through them. But are probably here set up more so for those conditions than many you would have seen would be.

(Maybe too much OK Dinghy sailing rubbed off on my upwind sailing /forums/images/icons/smile.gif).

Regards John

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[Robin]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

Hi John

Four NZL OKs in the 2004 World Champs passed us on the way in yesterday, they are using a shipping container as their base NZL banner flying high. Bit hi-tech now to when I sailed them, whatever happened to wood masts!

We had a steady 25/26kts over the deck and upwind could hold that with everything up but at the expense of boatspeed and comfort so put in the first reef at about 19kts apparent if it looks like that (or more) is the order of the day. We do have a tall rig & biggish sail area though so we are fast in lighter airs too. Even on our old & heavy W33 Ketch we would have had no mizzen and some rolls in the genoa yesterday, so I suspect this was a 'don't want to go on deck' problem for some.

Robin

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[bedouin]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

Seems that you got a bit more wind than we did in the Eastern Solent - where I was never got above F4 (although we did get a couple of gusts to 25kts) and checking the observations for Channel lightvessel they also had F4 most of the day.

So your F5-6 must have been a localised affect in which case boats sailing in from elsewhere might have ended up with too much canvas up.

In my experience half-rolled genoas and full mains is a sign the wind gradually building - people seem to be more likely to tuck a roll in the Genoa than take a reef in the main.

Unless you are racing, or hard on the wind, I don't think it really matters how you reduce sail. Every boat and skipper is different. Bedouin has a smallish main and a big Genoa (with the #1 being about twice the size of the main) so the main control over the amount of sail is done with the genoa, and the main is used just to keep the boat balanced and on her feet. When cruising short distances I am very unlikely to bother to change from the #1 to the #2 underway so it is not uncommon for me to sail with full main and "1 reef" in the genoa although I know the upwind performance suffers that way.

Yesterday we were carrying full sail with no problems (mosting reaching rather than close hauled) although we would have been just as fast with the #2 rather than then #1 in the afternoon.



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[Robin]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

If that was inside the Solent then you probably had less wind too than in Poole Bay, but as you say it is faster to be set up right. I can understand it on a gusty day (reef for the gusts not the lulls, raceboat style) but yesterday wasn't gusty out in the bay, just a good solid wind. We were on autopilot too and set on compass not wind at 27 degs apparent so didn't want to screw up too much in a gust! Should have put in a tack offshore before Christchurch Ledge but we were busy eating lunch - big mistake! SWMBO took the first wave in the face (we had the sprayhood down and no wet weather gear on) and didn't appreciate me laughing that it didn't reach me, until the next one which did! After 30 b.....y years I should know better than to cross the ledge inshore on springs with wind against tide....

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[jimi]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

Ended up with a reasonably consistent F6 from the Brambles up past the Oil terminals in Soton Water.

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[Robin]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

It may have been some sea breeze on top, certainly more wind outside than we saw inside the West Solent. I did have a quick look on one site that showed 20kts at Portland and we had 22/23kts consistantly when back in our berth. The boats in question were all doing the same trip as us, upwind to Poole, the ones going the other way had everything up as you would expect, including the occasional spinnaker. We put in a first reef as we left through Hurst, easy for us as we do it all from the cockpit, we had 22kts apparent then and the tide hadn't started to run yet either so it was likely to increase over the deck when it did.

What puzzled me really were the small boats of around 24 to 28ft with NO reefs not even rolls in the genoa.

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[Neraida]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

We had a reef in yesterday, for comfort more than anything upwind as we carry a lot of sail but could have done with shaking it out when on a reach.

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[bedouin]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

Were said small boats looking over canvassed? I imagine that these days most boats in the 24-28ft range are older designs.

There is certainly a tendency these days to put a bigger rig on the boat than would have been the case 20 years ago in order to improve light airs performance. Many "AWBs" seem to like to be reefed early (a) because they have a large sailplan and (b) because they are designed to be sailed upright. Older boats tend to have a more symmetric hull form that sails well at high degrees of heal.

Also smaller boats carry their sails lower down and there may be a significant difference in wind strength (not sure of the figures)

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[Stemar]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

Don't know about yesterday, but on Saturday, QHM were regularly announcing 15kts in Prtsmouth harbour. No2 son & I were out for a bit of fun, so beating up past Gilkicker, I had full main and a couple of rolls in the genny and were reasonably upright most of the time, definitely a bit overpressed in the gusts, so we just let her round up (as if we had any choice!)

Broad reaching back with full sail was definitely on the edge - but serious fun. With perhaps 1/2 a knot of tide with us, 6.7kts on the GPS is my record for Jissel (Snapdragon 24), and we didn't drop below 5 1/2 knots until the harbour entrance, when 4 - 4 1/2 felt like we were standing still.

If I was on a passage, or with my good lady aboard, in the same conditions, I would certainly have put 2-3 rolls in the main, but what's the point in being a middle aged deliquent if you can't be delinquent once in a while?

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[Robin]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

Sadler 26 (fin, I could clearly see it), Great Dane 28 (long keel), Snapdragon 24 twin keel, Parker 31 and some UAWBs (unidentified others) so yes these were often older designs but they were all screwing up nicely in the gusts too. The one with a full (in-mast reefing) main and full roller genoa which was screwing nicely and going sideways was a Moody 37 fin (again quite visible!).

IMO they should have reefed but chose to struggle on. The alternative is that they are seriously under canvassed and will be motoring in F4, there may be some small truth in that too.

None of my business really, it just made me curious watching them have such an uncomfortable ride when it could have been more enjoyable on what was a nice sunny afternoon, maybe sailing on their ear is what trips their trigger though so who am I to say!



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[billmacfarlane]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

If you saw me on Saturday near Beaulieu, I was one of those boats not reefed. I've got 43% ballast, fractional rig, and didn't need to reef ( my wife begged to differ ). We had about 25 knots apparent in gusts and I was struggling in a couple of those but overall it was OK. if the wind steadied at 25 k I'd have popped a reef in. What staggered me was the boats going downwind motoring. Why ????

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[Robin]

Re: Can\'t reef won\'t reef

There was a touch more wind outside in Poole Bay I suspect, we had 20/22kts TRUE pretty much with up to 27kts apparent but pretty steady around 25/26kts, but then we are doing +/- 7kts closehauled. We could carry full sail closehauled and feathering the gusts but I couldn't do that on autopilot which was on all the way and it is also slower as well as less comfy! There weren't too many going the other way against the tide and those that were had mostly just a headsail set, none were motoring alone (for once) though they were doing that going our way and we passed a couple of those quite easily.

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[LadyInBed]

Re: F5 nudging F6

Interesting, I beat out from Poole, tacked in to St Albans head then ran back to Old Harry against the tide, which was hard going. I don’t use wind instruments (except those that come naturally) and I was reckoning F4 to 5. On that basis I had the genoa rolled down to the second mark, full main and mizzen. I did think about putting a reef in the main but no screwing up in the gusts, beating at 6 to 7 knots and as I was on my own and enjoying myself, I didn’t bother. It’s the only way to wash the muck off the gunnels! I did reef the main on Saturday, as I had a couple of passengers out for the day and didn’t know how they would react, or put them off.

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[Robin]

Re: F5 nudging F6

Hi Nigel

Our wind instrument data is repeated on a multi at the wheel so we keep the windspeed/direction + closehauled meter over the mainhatch set on apparent wind and the multi at the wheel set to display true wind speed, it is also possible to recall later the maximum windspeed recorded, either true or apparent. Inside the western Solent we were seeing about 15kts true (top of F4) but once through Hurst this increased to 20kts true (top of F5) with 22kts (just into F6) out into the bay, these were steady figures not the gusts and in fact it wasn't very gusty anyway. Back in our berth in Poole we were recording up to 22kts still. The direction was WSW for the most part, later more SW, which means that perhaps the wind was more offshore between Poole and St Albans whereas it was straight onshore at Hurst the other side of the bay. We go upwind at around 7kts and 28 degs apparent which gives a VMG to windward of +/- 5.5kts, so 20kts true will show 25/26kts apparent over the deck.

Interesting that you had rolls in the genoa and yet still had the mizzen up. When we had our W33 Ketch, similar style to your Countess, the first reef was to drop the mizzen, second was to take a roll or two in the genoa, third was one reef in the main and more rolls in the genoa with more of that to follow or drop the main and swap it for the mizzen. In Sunday's wind strengths we would have had full mainsail and some rolls in the genoa, 2nd mark probably and we would not have had the mizzen, speed around 6kts but at 35 degs to the apparent wind and VMG more like 4.5kts.

My idle observations on Sunday (going upwind) were that quite a few of the smaller boats would have done better with a reef, but perhaps putting one in would be unpleasant so they didn't and that others if they really didn't need to reef would be seriously undercanvassed in a pleasant F3/4 when most of us like to sail - maybe why you see so many motoring. Another idle observation was that motoring upwind was the slow way to travel, one 34/35ft was motorsailing with full main and we crossed him twice ahead as we tacked, another of a similar size was motoring straight into the wind with no sail up at all and going very slowly and very uncomfortably.

As I said in an earlier reply it really is none of my business, just pure idle speculation whilst looking around as you do!

Robin

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[Mirelle]

The real problem is not the reefing gear

It is that on very many boats, leaving the cockpit under way is difficult and feels unsafe.

This makes people go in for elaborate systems, including in mast reefing, lazyjack and full batten systems, roller reefing genoas and suchlike, which IN THEORY allow the sail area to be reduced or increased at will from the cockpit.

Now, there is no doubt that, in the hands of the professional yachting folks, the most expensive, beautifully engineered, versions of these systems work very well indeed.

The ordinary weekend yacht is another matter. The owner tends to buy, not the most expensive system, but one that he or she thinks is probably adequate, and likewise he or she tends to but a size of gear which is adequate rather than ample.

In the case of new boats, the manufacturers will select the cheapest equipment that they can reasonably get away with.

When first fitted, or when the boat is new, everything works fine. Over time, salt and crud build up in parts of the set up and friction increases. It becomes hard work to use the systems, and people tend to avoid using them unless they have to do so. In a bit of a blow, it becomes very much harder to use this stuff.

QED.

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[Robin]

Re: The real problem is not the reefing gear

Yes I agree, a lot of sense in that.

We changed to a roller reefing headsail from hank on sails when we bought our previous W33 and although I was reluctant to do so I was even more reluctant to hump bulky heavy wet sails about on the foredeck! We fitted a fully battened main (and mizzen) on the W33 with lazyjacks and slab reefing though done at the mast, however with the cockpit mounted mizzen and roller genoa, reefing the main was not a frequent task.

With a tall masthead rig on our current boat I could see that reefing the main would be a more frequent activity with no mizzen to just drop in the cockpit, so we modified the existing arrangement to 2 line slab reefing of the fully battened main with all lines for all 3 reefs back to the cockpit and coachroof mounted winches (standard equipment). We can reef easily and quickly even singlehanded from the cockpit which does encourage using the gear more than if we had to get wet on deck, though at least our boat has granny bars at the mast as standard unlike most. Our systems work well, we have never needed to use a winch on the roller genoa though one is available and the fully battened mainsail is on roller bearing cars and goes up and down easily. The tack reef lines have no load when the halyard is lowered so are pulled in without a winch (available if needed) so only the clew reef lines need winching in, easy enough as the boom weight is supported by the rigid kicker.

I think the reefing systems need careful thought, need to be simple quick and safe to operate otherwise they will not be used as soon as they should, and reefing is left until there really is no choice and by then the job is twice as horrible!

Robin



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[Mirelle]

Re: The real problem is not the reefing gear

Your last paragraph sums it up!

For some psychological reason, perhaps just because we don't like to think about weather in which we might reef, many people, including myself, are reluctant to reef as often as we should, and so we don't get enough practice reefing.

I suspect that we tend to think of the reefing gear in the same way as we think of the storm jib and the liferaft - we know we need to have one, but having duly got one we prefer to think about nicer things!

Four years ago I changed my mainsail reefing gear (old style round the boom roller) for a better one - I swapped a Turner (ratchet) gear for an Appledore (worn drive) one, mainly because I saw a nice one in a chandler's oddments bin, and after a few false starts this has quite changed my attitude to reefing - I now do it very much more often. I surprised myself putting a reef down, because my small son disliked the heel , then shaking it out again, between Harwich and Walton Backwaters, which is all of about four miles!

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[Cheeky Girl]

Re: The real problem is not the reefing gear

Have just returned from a flottila in Greece with SWMBO & 2 kids.
The boat had all the reefing back to the cockpit which made everything easy. But we also sailed a fair bit on Genoa alone - 2 rolls in - no main - broad/beam reach with force 5-6 cruising about 7 knts and the boat was nice a stable. It also meant that no one needed to go to the mast to bring the mail down before entering harbour.

I will now experiment more with sail configuration rather than always putting the main up then the genoa.


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