Can I improve current instruments with small improvements

[steveeasy]

Hi,
My new boat has come with a host of useful but a little long in the tooth electronics listed below. They all seam to function well, I am planning to add a Raymarine E7 Hybrid touch as my chartplottor. I assume the Autohelm instruments are all NMEA 0183. Although I do not know I assume they are connected with sea talk fittings. would this be correct?, perhaps there may be a controller, would there need to be?.
I have3 little to no understanding of boat electronics but wonder what my options be and gains trying to link these units to the Raymarine Hybrid touch chartplotter which I asume is NMEA 2000. I probaly will change the AIS to a transponder. I dont really understand what a trydata is other than providing depth/speed and GPS in one spot. how much am I missing ?
If anyone can shed some light in simple terms it would be appreciated.
Thanks
Steveeasy

Currently on Boat

Plastimo bulkhead compass
Autohelm depth/log
Autohelm speed
Autohelm compass
Raymarine wireless wind speed/direction (new in 2022
Autohelm radar (chart table) – currently disconnected Autohelm GP
S (chart table)
Autohelm TriData log/speed/depth
Standard Horizon explorer VHF with integral GPS –

 

[jwilson]

About £120 buys you a Raymarine ST-STNG converter which with the right connectors will get the Autohelm speed /depth/compass data into the new plotter.

 

[awol]

.... or Aves make Yakker converters that will take in ST1 and output NMEA0183 for about £70. What you don't seem to have is an Autotiller - from experience a ST2000+ is not strong enough for a CO32.

 

[steveeasy]

What you don't seem to have is an Autotiller - from experience a ST2000+ is not strong enough for a CO32.

Ouch. I wonder what would be an alternative to the ST2000 that would work with the above?. might be time to get a professional to sort the current system instead of working on something I have little understanding of. would the Raymarine AV100 be something that would work and or did autohelm have something similar. any suggestions for someone to look at this in the Dunoon area.

Thanks
steveeasy

 

[Tranona]

The EV 100 will be more suitable and you will able to integrate it with your instruments - but it is £1600 or so. I have just been through this process with my Golden Hind which is also marginal with an ST2000. I decided to go the latter route for 3 reasons. First I do not plan sailing in conditions that will overwhelm it - my main use will be when motoring and particularly when setting sail at the start where being able to hold a consistent course is important. Second I do not have Raymarine instruments. All mine are NMEA 0183 so I cannot easily link to the EV to take advantage of its features (the ST2000 will take both Seatalk and NMEA but is limited in what it can do). Finally and probably critical given the state of my wallet after a year of refit, the ST2000 is on offer at Marine Superstore at £480 roughly 25% of the price of an EV.

However for you (ignoring the money bit) the EV is the way to go if you want something that will cope with serious sailing (read Concerto's threads on his recent trip round Britain in his Fulmar). Raymarine does not use straight NMEA but its own version called Seatalk. All your current gear is the original Seatalk, but your new plotter and EV will be Seatalk NG which is their version of NMEA 2000. As jwilson says they sell a convertor Seatalk to NG which will allow you to integrate all your instruments with the plotter and autopilot. Suggest you talk to a Raymarine dealer who will be able to tell you what bits you need to make the connections. Make sure your credit card has a healthy limit!

Hope this helps

 

[steveeasy]

The EV 100 will be more suitable and you will able to integrate it with your instruments - but it is £1600 or so. I have just been through this process with my Golden Hind which is also marginal with an ST2000. I decided to go the latter route for 3 reasons. First I do not plan sailing in conditions that will overwhelm it - my main use will be when motoring and particularly when setting sail at the start where being able to hold a consistent course is important. Second I do not have Raymarine instruments. All mine are NMEA 0183 so I cannot easily link to the EV to take advantage of its features (the ST2000 will take both Seatalk and NMEA but is limited in what it can do). Finally and probably critical given the state of my wallet after a year of refit, the ST2000 is on offer at Marine Superstore at £480 roughly 25% of the price of an EV.

However for you (ignoring the money bit) the EV is the way to go if you want something that will cope with serious sailing (read Concerto's threads on his recent trip round Britain in his Fulmar). Raymarine does not use straight NMEA but its own version called Seatalk. All your current gear is the original Seatalk, but your new plotter and EV will be Seatalk NG which is their version of NMEA 2000. As jwilson says they sell a convertor Seatalk to NG which will allow you to integrate all your instruments with the plotter and autopilot. Suggest you talk to a Raymarine dealer who will be able to tell you what bits you need to make the connections. Make sure your credit card has a healthy limit!

Hope this helps

Oh ive not one yet. Perhaps I should get one soon.!! The converter makes sense. Well ill be working extra hard, in between another new hip over Christmas. funds seriously depleted but my heart is not. ill have to decide what really I wish to invest in. adapting to single line reefing could make my sailing so much easier. All the above advice has been very useful.
Thank You.
Steveeasy

 

[coopec]

TILLER PILOT/AUTO HELM 13 Feb 2009

"Would deffo go for ST2000 as a minimum or S1 if you plan to use it a lot although it is quite a bit more £'s. ST1000 is really an entry level tillerpilot.

The lock to lock time on the 1000 is probably a bit slow for your type of boat.

I have an ST2000 on my Co32 and it's not missed a beat however I am looking at replacing with an S1 for more offshore/short handed sailing. " Giorgeo 13 Feb 2009

Tiller Pilot/Autohelm

 

[ChromeDome]

I was going through a similar consideration based on a desire to replace my Lowrance HDS 10 (gen 1) with something newer.

I very much suggest making a total plan and looking forward much as you can, before making decisions. You may be starting a chain reaction!

I looked to find a new chart plotter that "only" does what the old one did, with updated features and performance, but found it quite difficult. At the same time there have been delivery problems (something with chips, displays & China) and on top of everything the prices are such that the same technology inside two boxes leads to doubling the price just because you go from 9" to the next size (12") display.
Due to wider screen formats on new models, I have to replace my 10" with a 12" to get the same visible picture height. Funnily enough, I need to look forward (up at the screen) more than to the sides!

The whole market has moved towards more complex, more (to me unnecessary) features in more integrated devices, linked together and with internet access. In addition, manufacturers are merging or taking over each other (for example Garmin now owns Navionics, Brunswick owns Lowrance+B&G+Simrad+C-Map) so the competition between brands is well controlled. As is End-of-life for models they deem "discontinued".

I even made a budget for a total upgrade of VHF, AIS, Autopilot, Plotter, Sounder and then some.
Since all current units are NMEA 2000, interconnected and working there simply was no justification for throwing thousands of hard-earned money at it.

So the desire to upgrade was parked under the "Vanity" category on my to-do list, until further development.

 

[steveeasy]

Well an EV100 kit looks to be around 1800 all in so thats too much to really even consider. I wonder therefore If it is worth thinking Autohelm 4000 or even a Raymarine ST 5000. These I would assume would offer what I need where as the EV 100 may well perform many functions id never be able to understand. I had a Vulcan 7 which apparently had the capability do do almost anything. the reality i simple did not need it or understand it. I also found it extremely difficult to navigate.

Steveeasy

 

[Supertramp]

I am in a similar position to you but 3 years on. My autopilot (ST6000) is good but stands alone, my instruments are standalone (Stowe, some careful rebuilding done there) and the plotter/radar stands on its own. And I added standalone AIS. And I have the complication of dual helms.

After 2 seasons sailing I am not in a rush to add integration or change/upgrade parts so long as it continues to function reliably. I added a simple Navionics tablet for use at the outside helm (or inside) and the autopilot has an inside and outside control box which is very useful. I don't really need integrated VMG, SOG, wind etc. The data is there and I get used to scanning the instruments to check things.

Accepting that it may be hard to adapt if you are used to full integration, my advice is to use it and after a season is the time to judge what it's worth to you to enhance or upgrade. If it all works, then leave well alone. Except for the autopilot which would be my priority.

I'm buying some new sails instead!

 

[ChromeDome]

It seems like a good idea to get things to exchange data/connect as much as possible without investing too much.

My chart plotter, the aforementioned HDS, can control the autopilot (Simrad) to follow a route with no problem, but the AP can also hold a given course on its own. That gives options

The global satellite position of the plotter is used by the VHF (DSC) which also has AIS reception. Since the devices are on the same NMEA2000 network, the VHF's AIS reception is shared with the chart plotter so that other vessels appear on its screen.

All this is fine and quite automatic with some choices, but as the plotter does not have the "autoroute" feature my option is to use a tablet (Android) for this. And then carry by hand the route into the plotter.
Not smart, so in practice I let the tablet run as backup plotter and set the AP to the courses the tablet screen shows, as I go along.

Clever? No - that's why I wanted to upgrade the HDS so it could autoroute + some other stuff.

And then there was the budget thing...
So I'll just carry on as usual.

 

[doug748]

"Accepting that it may be hard to adapt if you are used to full integration, my advice is to use it and after a season is the time to judge what it's worth to you to enhance or upgrade. If it all works, then leave well alone. Except for the autopilot which would be my priority."

"So the desire to upgrade was parked under the "Vanity" category on my to-do list, until further development."


100% agree with these two sentiments. The golden rule is spend as little as you can - till you have sailed the boat for a season.
I can't see that integrating the instruments you have got would give you any great advantage. Redoing the lot would be dam near 50% of the cost of the boat and only bear real fruit if you are a keen racer.

If I read it correctly you want/need some form of electric autohelm and a plotter, plus you have said you would like to upgrade to AIS transmit. I would seriously look at something like this, that would kill two birds with one stone:

Onwa KP38A 5" Chart Plotter Class B+ AIS transceiver 24 month warranty | eBay

Other sizes are available, depending on your requirements but 5in is usable, cheaper, modest on consumption and handy to site on a small boat. Mounted under the sprayhood, it is in a good spot when shorthanded and only a couple of feet from your eyeline at the helm. If needs be I would oust one or two existing instruments at the deckhead to have it in the right spot.

As for electronic helms I have both the EV100 type and a TP32. The former will cope with most things and is outstanding in poor conditions, however I actually use the TP32 most of the time. So I agree with the others, get something relatively inexpensive, it will not be a waste in the long run.

.

 

[Laysula]

Mine is a Bavaria 350 which came with ST50 instruments and a rl70c plotter. All worked fine but the cmap nt charts can't be updated anymore. I have replaced the plotter with an Axiom 7 at the helm instead of under the sprayhood. I integrated this with the other instruments using a st stng convertor. Moving the plotter meant that I had to lose two instruments from the helm, so I moved the log and depth to one of the lockers out of the way and can still see this information on the plotter. This leaves me with (on the helm) Plotter, wind instrument and st4000 autopilot. I still have repeaters for the log and depth on the bulkhead. All works very well although the wheelpilot is a bit undersized for the size of the boat. St50 instruments are coming up for 30 years old and still working fine. Seems a bit pointless to change for something newer which would just do the same job.

 

[Concerto]

Well an EV100 kit looks to be around 1800 all in so thats too much to really even consider. I wonder therefore If it is worth thinking Autohelm 4000 or even a Raymarine ST 5000. These I would assume would offer what I need where as the EV 100 may well perform many functions id never be able to understand. I had a Vulcan 7 which apparently had the capability do do almost anything. the reality i simple did not need it or understand it. I also found it extremely difficult to navigate.

Steveeasy

You could try looking for a Raymarine SX5, which was the previous generation model for the EV100. The ram is the same size and 50% larger than the old 2000. Worth placing a wanted adert to try and find one.

 

[steveeasy]

Mine is a Bavaria 350 which came with ST50 instruments and a rl70c plotter. All worked fine but the cmap nt charts can't be updated anymore. I have replaced the plotter with an Axiom 7 at the helm instead of under the sprayhood. I integrated this with the other instruments using a st stng convertor. Moving the plotter meant that I had to lose two instruments from the helm, so I moved the log and depth to one of the lockers out of the way and can still see this information on the plotter. This leaves me with (on the helm) Plotter, wind instrument and st4000 autopilot. I still have repeaters for the log and depth on the bulkhead. All works very well although the wheelpilot is a bit undersized for the size of the boat. St50 instruments are coming up for 30 years old and still working fine. Seems a bit pointless to change for something newer which would just do the same job.

I think those are wise words of wisdom. They work fine. not sure why I have a compass though or is that solely for the GPS ?. Or was it intended to work with a Auto Tiller ?Even these 30 year old instruments offer more at present I can utilise fully. Just trying to tweek what I might have to get AIS on the Hybrid touch and include a auto tiller.
Steveeasy

 

[steveeasy]

You could try looking for a Raymarine SX5, which was the previous generation model for the EV100. The ram is the same size and 50% larger than the old 2000. Worth placing a wanted adert to try and find one.

Hi Concerto,
Ill look in to that for sure. might well be a very cost effective option.
Many thanks
Steveeasy

 

[Rafiki]

Two observations, firstly I know it is obvious but do make sure you have thoroughly read all the manuals and set them up to get the best out of them all ( thee instruments on my boat I bought second-hand from someone who said they just didn't work properly and gave the wrong depth etc. In fact carefully wiring them up testing and reading the manuals proved that they all worked perfectly!) Secondly the Raymarine ST60 or ST60+ Graphic display is very useful as it can be configured to provide any information on your network in 1,2,3,or 4 lines and even scroll through them all automatically _ have two one in the cockpit and one at the chart table, both bought 2nd hand of course.

 

[laika]

perhaps there may be a controller, would there need to be?.
[…]
I dont really understand what a trydata is other than providing depth/speed and GPS in one spot. how much am I missing ?

There’s not a controller with seatalk: it’s basically a bit of wire connecting all the instruments which they all share data on. Somewhere power will be fed in. This was often done via an autopilot at one end of the seatalk wire but it could just be connected to 12v.

The tridata, as the name suggests, shows three types of data. Usually the data from log, depth and wind transducers. If your main instruments are above the companionway it’s handy to have these data repeated at the chart table. If the thing shows GPS too, perhaps it’s an ST50+ multi rather than aST50 tri.

not sure why I have a compass though or is that solely for the GPS ?. Or was it intended to work with a Auto Tiller ?

On a system with an autopilot of that era you’d normally have a compass connected to a course computer which would send heading onto the seatalk bus and be repeated by a compass instrument. However if you didn’t have an autopilot you could connect a compass directly to the instrument. Many people including me find them easier to read than a traditional compass. Look at the back: the middle wire should take you to the compass.

Is your new wind instrument an i60 and is it connected to the others? Doing so is simple (one wire) and adding log data to wind allows you to display true wind.

Other than that there’s no real imperative to connect instruments to a new plotter unless you desperately need to display instrument data on the plotter, but if your instrument displays work why bother? As mentioned above, if you do want it the seatalk to stng converter is not too expensive and straightforward to install but if your plotter is not already connected to an nmea 2000 /seatalk ng network there’s other wires and gubbins to buy too so you’re looking more at a couple of hundred-ish.

An AIS you obviously will want to connect to the plotter but no reason for it to talk to other instruments

 

[steveeasy]

Great massive of good information for me. Thank you.

a system with an autopilot of that era you’d normally have a compass connected to a course computer which would send heading onto the seatalk bus and be repeated by a compass instrument. However if you didn’t have an autopilot you could connect a compass directly to the instrument. Many people including me find them easier to read than a traditional compass. Look at the back: the middle wire should take you to the compass.

Ok. Course computer ? So what would this unit be called. ?

I do have a autohelm compass fitted. I wonder if this was for the original wind instrument that was removed. I now have raymarine wireless wind. Stand alone.

No need to link instruments at all to plotter.

Id like the idea of a st4000 unit cost effective. If I can find the bits. Linked to plotter and the existing compass.

Thanks
Steveeasy

 

[Tranona]

Suspect you will have difficulty in finding a working ST4000. Why would anybody want to sell one when there is really nothing to update it to?

A tiller pilot is cumbersome to use because you have to attach the ram every time you want to use and remove it when you need to steer manually. This is unlike a below decks type on wheel steered boats (and some modern tiller steered) which have a clutch so activating the pilot is just pressing a button, or if integrated controlling it from the plotter. I had all this on my Bavaria with all the controls at the helm including the plotter, but in reality the only things I used regularly were steer to a heading or to wind. The autotack function was useful at times. You can do all of this with an ST 2000 with the reservation that compared with the EV or 4000 you may find it does not cope with heavy weather under sail.

As has been suggested consider getting an ST 2000 now and see how you get on with it. You will have the important functions for 25% of the price of an EV. Spend more on getting as big a plotter (if you use it in the cockpit) as you can and add AIS if you feel the need.