Can anyone explain keels to me ?

[Jobs_a_ good_ un]

Being new to sailing yachts I need a bit of help with keels
ie what is a shoal keel etc I know what a bilge keel is and a fin keel the others I struggle with.
Which is the most stable keel ?
Which is fastest type ? is speed affected by the keel ?
I quite like bilge keels are these as stable and fast as fin keels
We do a lot of boating around Bristol channel and cant use a few harbours such as ilfracombe with out rolling about all night because we cant take the ground and have to stay out a long way.
I fancy being able to get right in to beachs etc
I quite fancy a smaller boat say 20- 30 ft any suggestions ?

 

[cliff]

Have you considered a catamaran? - you could go right up the beach then.
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"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

 

[fireball]

Ok - I will get shot to pieces for this but here goes anyway ....


Fin Keel - generally fast upwind, good pointing ability, crap at drying out
Shoal keel - a short Fin Keel, looses some of the ability to point and will have more leeway, less wetted area so should be quicker down wind
You can dry out with Fin Keels, but you need to lean against something (or be very clever at balancing!)

Wing Keel - a short Fin Keel with a wing (a bit like the hydrofoil on the moth) across the bottom (or close) should give the benefit of a short fin whilst giving performance more akin to a deep Fin. Again - these can dry out, some should be able to dry without leaning against something but I hate to think of the forces!!

Lift Keel - Basically these have a good deal of weight in the keel line and then have a lighter lifting board - gives the advantage of being able to get into shallow areas whilst retaining up wind performance - obviously the upwind performance is affected by the lesser righting moment than it's fixed keel cousins.

Bilge Keel - If one Fin is good, then 2 is better!! Well - close, but the common versions of these do suffer from lack of pointing up wind, but do have a huge advantage of being able to take to level ground.... The Sadler 29 is found in both Fin and Bilge, the Fin easily outstrips the Bilge upwind....

I'd guess you're either after a bilge or a lift keel....

 

[Pinnacle]

A shoal keel is simply a shallow one ( perhaps drawing four feet or so )

Fastest would be a very long fin with a bulb on the end - canting for max effect ( like the rtw yachts ).

If you want to take the ground, then it will have to be a bilge keeler or a centreboard type, which you can wind up into the hull. This will of course take up some of the useable space.

I am not the best person to make suggestions as to what particular models may be suitable - sorry.

 

[Pinnacle]

A Lakesailor?

 

[boatmike]

Ohhh! A convert?
Dead right of course but I think he wants a boat under 25 ft. Not a lot of choice in cats that size.

 

[cliff]

No - no one has been thanked yet! - I still think a cat would solve his problems of beaching.
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"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
sailroom <span style="color:red">The place to auction your previously loved boatie bits</span>

 

[snowleopard]

BIG subject but very briefly-

The deeper the keel the better the boat will go to windward but if you're not racing that won't be prime consideration

The fin keel is the traditional deep single keel, preferred by racers but a pain for shallow water and drying out.

Bilge/twin keels are shallower but have less lateral resistance and more wetted area so generally lower performance

Shallow fins, often accompanied by 'wings', try to get most of the benefits of the fin but shallower. The wings are to reduce loss of grip by preventing water flowing around the tip. modern aircraft use wingtip fins for the same reason.

Lifting keels aim to give the best of all worlds by being deep for windward work but shallow for beaching. To be safe they must be capable of being locked down so they don't retract in a knockdown. They are normally combined with retracting or shallow rudders so the rudder is never the lowest (most vulnerable) point.

There are a few other less common types of keel-

Triple - generally associated with heavy small cruisers 40+ years ago
Tandem - two central fins or one with a slot in aimed at high lift with shallow draft.
Swing - shallow fin with pivoting centreboard that houses inside it.

For coastal cruising, twin keels are a good compromise. Some good ones have been made by British Hunter e.g. Duette, Pilot 27. Lots of Westerlys were built with bilge keels. Around the Bristol Channel twin keels would work well, for example you could dry out at Minehead. Also if you have an unplanned drying out, you won't spend the next 8 hours over on your ear worrying whether she'll float on the next tide!

sh*t. must learn to type faster - there were no responses on this thread when I started mine!

 

[Skyva_2]

Seals or Parker lift keel boats are generally thought to be very quick.

website - http://www.sealasc.org.uk/

 

[oldharry]

Now you have gone and done it - there will be 153 posts arguing the virtues and vices of the different keel types. The joke is that most of us will be right. Right that is, for the kind of sailing you do.

Me for example - I go for Bilge keels every time, because I have a drying mooring, and my boat spends several hours a day aground. But I wouldn't touch a bilge keeler if my sport was crashing round the cans to see who can get back ashore to the bar quickest!

 

[Bergman]

I will second that

Had a 31 for 13 years

Very fast - 9kts+ to windward with a family crew

Malahide to Holyhead 9hrs

4yr old daughter could steer to weather at 8 kts - with a tiller!

Dried out easily with weight on the wing and the skeg - safe as houses.

Only sailed a bilge keeler once and hated it - going to weather in a bit of a chop slammed down off of waves like nothing I'd experienced before - first time I thought we'd hit bottom - horrible.

 

[Csail]

We are Bristol channel with long keel, good for the swell here but triple keel would be ideal in this area.

 

[Lakesailor]

Fin keels sail best, but not good in shallow water
(yes, that is the same boat as in yesterday's post about shredded headsails)'

With a deep fin and small bulb to get the weight low they are very stable

Bilge keels make hard work of going to windward (pointing up less and making more leeway) but sit nicely when dried out. They do go very well on a broad reach.

There are also triple keel yachts which have a short fin and two small bilge keels which may take the ground (this one is being careened over to get it off the rocks)

Haven't got any pics of a lift keel yacht (well I do but it's a McGreggor) although the Parkers are supposed to be very good. I was looking at a Parker 21 the other day and it was a beautifully made boat with lots of well thought out details.

All my opinions of course and other people will no doubt have their own.

 

[totopalm]

Did'nt know Windermere was that tidal!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Evadne]

http://www.eoa.org.uk/forms/E23BrochureGDB.pdf

Link to an old brochure for the Elizabethan 23, a drop keel (into a stub keel, as opposed to a centreboard case) yacht.
I don't have any photographs of one out of the water.

 

[Lakesailor]

Arnside. I should have mentioned that. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[totopalm]

Wheres that, thought he was thet detective in a wheelchair??

 

[Guest]

Well, as someone who sails in the Brizzle Channel, out of Bideford, I can tell you that there really is only one choice.

That of course is the bilge keeler, but if you are sure of your ground, a swing or lift keel would be a good choice, but as I said, only if you are sure of your ground, ie. where you are about to dry her out.

You wouldn't want a sharp piece of mother earth, or a shopping trolley, or even somebodies anchor! (don't laugh, happened at Instow a short while ago!) popping up through your bottom would you?

I would say that the majority of sailing cruisers using the Brizzle Channel are bilge keelers, the reasons are obvious. All the points / answers you have received so far have a good deal of validity, and I am arguing with no one.

A bilge keeler, (at least most of them), wont point up as well as their fin keeled cousins, but as has already been pointed out to you, does that matter if you are not racing around the cans? Also it is true to say that a bilge keeler will make more leeway if pressed to hard to windward, for the reasons that have already been outlined.

There are bilge keelers and bilge keelers, what I mean is, I would stay away from the older types with almost vertical keels, they do slip sideways (leeway) very easily.

I am biased of course, but if I had to give you advice on making a purchase, and feel confident that you wouldn't make a balls up, I would say buy a Westerly bilge keeler of whatever your wallet and fancy will enable you to do.

There were issues with the Westerly Centuar bilge keelers, in that the keels would tend to flex and cause problems when taking the ground regularly as on a drying mooring, but I reckon that most of them have been sorted by now, except maybe those that have spent their days on a deep water mooring (makes you wonder why somebody would buy a Centaur if they had a deep water mooring dunnit?) But I digress somewhat.

I would suggest that you have a wander around the North Devon and North Somerset coast and harbours and have a look at what is being used, you will find that places that have marinas such as Watchet do have some fin keelers, but they will tend to be boats that belong to passage makers more than say day / weekend sailors? You will also find some drop / swing keelers, but there isn't that many.

Balls or balls up is in your court really, all the advice you have received so far is pretty much on the nail. A bilge keeler will let you enjoy your sailing around the Bristol Channel, and except for a couple of exceptions, more to do with weather conditions, will give you access to all of the ports and harbours.

Best of luck with your search, Charlie.

 

[Lakesailor]

No, isn't he dead? Come to think of it.........

 

[alant]

"I would say that the majority of sailing cruisers using the Brizzle Channel are bilge keelers, the reasons are obvious.

A bilge keeler, (at least most of them), wont point up as well as their fin keeled cousins, but as has already been pointed out to you, does that matter if you are not racing around the cans? Also it is true to say that a bilge keeler will make more leeway if pressed to hard to windward, for the reasons that have already been outlined."

In the Brizzle Channel, with that bl--dy great tidal range, you only sail with the tide anyway don't you, so windward performance is a bit of a luxury anyway. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif