Calling all catamaran owners.

[boatmike]

As many on here know Peregrine is a Prout Snowgoose 37. Not a very fast boat by cat standards but solid as a rock and safe as houses in a blow. Visiting the boat show and looking at the Broadblue 435 and Privilege 445 however I have begun to think.......
Both superbly luxurious and I am sure good at sea, and with increased bridgedeck clearance and longer waterlines, and netting foredecks they are going to be much faster and slam less. They are also claimed to point higher.
The question is this.
Good old Peregrine goes quite well to windward for a cat, giving fair performance at about 50degrees apparent and still sailing well (although much more slowly) at 40 degrees. Less than that she still points but I get there quicker by freeing her up and tacking more. (yes she does tack through the wind very well!) I have up until now thought of this as pretty reasonable. These guys both claim they can sail well at 40 degrees and can still sail productively pointing at 30 degrees.
Does the panel believe them?
Do they actually point higher or is it just that being bigger faster boats the apparent wind comes around to less because they are going faster and they don't in fact point higher to the true wind than Peregrine does?
Numbers aside, when Solent sailing, I seem to point as high as most monohull cruisers, but of course high performance racing boats do better.
Lets have a little survey here..... boasting aside, are there any cat owners out there with experience of either boat? Are there others out there worth a look as cruising boats? How well does yours do to windward?

 

[boatbuilder]

I have been sailing cats for the last 25 years , from Wharrams to Shuttleworth, and have been told a lot of nonsense by people that have never set foot in one.
Why do mono people insist on lumping all cats together, they would not compare a centaur with a stripped out racer, but they do with cats.
Cruising cats are quite able to tack through 100 degrees, and indeed racing cats with deep boards can really squeze op to 35, but as with monos the more you squeze the slower you go .
Having been in bad weather in both sorts of boat I would choose a cat every time. Once you get used to the different motion of a cat, it is easier to keep watch in the dry with a cup of coffee than be stuck in the cockpit , wich is the case in most monos.
Lets also kill another myth while talking multis, they do not sail at 15kts all day long. The average speed of the cruising cat is a little above a mono say 25% . Its only super racers that hit 20kts allday, indeed bigones avarage 30kts.
So please , all you mono people please dont confuse mondeos with lamborghinis.
I have sailed monos, indeed the last one was a 40 ftr from Plymouth to La Coruna, and when the weather got up it remined me of all the reasons that i will stay with cats ie,
The cooker is trying to kill you at all times, you cant put anything down without it falling over. and you have to lay on the floor to put on your oilies.
My vote is for cats, be they slow cruisers or F1 racers. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[boatmike]

Well thats all fine, but aren't you protesting rather too much? I am not a monohull sailor knocking cats. In fact I really don't want to start the old mono verses multi argument all over again cos its boring and unproductive. I was comparing one cruising cat with another and would really like to hear some informed comment rather than a rant defending cats as I don't feel persecuted owning one! In fact I usually get very complimentary comments wherever I go from monohull sailors, especially when they find I built her myself and your plea to monohull sailors is a bit premature as I don't see any criticism from monos here anyway.....

 

[oldsaltoz]

G'day Mike,

This is an interesting topic, I looked up the Broadblue 435, with 4 feet plus draft and 117 gallons fuel and 125 gallons water storage, she is designed for long distance cruising alright.

The Privilege 445 also has 4 feet plus draft and capacity for 110 gallons of fuel and 180 gallons of water.

However I was impressed with the interiors preferring the style used by Schionning on his cats, both sail and a very economic power cat "Prowler".

As for cats that actually point high under sail, I only ever saw one first hand, we were in the Brisbane to Gladstone race, the cats start 10 to 15 minutes after monos, we had made our start and remained on the same tack, I looked back to see how the cat start was going and a smallish (29 footer) with open deck got a very good start, he did not tack and passed us about 3 boat lengths to leeward, we were hard on and I estimate his speed was almost double ours and we were doing 7 and 8's, he was at most 5 degrees or less off our heading in the same wind. He also won line honors.

Our own cat an American production cat Stephens/ Lees 40 has undergone some modifications, dagger boards replaced with mini keels and the 900 litre water capacity reduced to 300, transoms extended 2 feet and steps to water level installed; but she still sails very well at just under 40* apparent even with the auto pilot on wind setting, at 45* she picks up a little more speed but not enough to make it faster to the destination. She will sail higher but slower and can be pinched up to make a rounding if needed, as long as your not in flying hurry. She tacks with no problems at all.

So As I said I know of at least one that sails fast and high, so given the power to weight ration there in no reason why a larger cat can not higher than older / cruising cats. But with all that water and fuel as well as 4 feet plus draft I would take some convincing.

Avagoodweeknd......

 

[bigwow]

When I built my Woods Flica, as soon as it was moulded I started sailing, the speed was incredible. Unfortunately as we have fitted out inside we have got a lot slower, but more comfortable. I prefer to bear away to go faster rather than try and point up as far as possible

 

[Rivers & creeks]

We've had a Heavenly Twins 27 for a year now, having owned bilge keelers before. I agree with not restarting the mono/multi hull argument, it's something you either get or don't.

I was surprised at Muddy Paws' relatively poor windward performance. Not the pointing as such as she will make progress to a waypoint at 35 degrees, but agonizingly slowly. In reality 50 degrees would be my close hauled angle of choice. As a cruising cat she is big enough to carry all the gear you need, and that is part of the problem. When we stripped out all the unnecessary gear we took out over 500kg of gear! How is it possible to carry that much!!!! Afterwards the performance was noticeably different but she also floated 1.5 inches higher (cats are very susceptible to weight) which I am sure helped to reduce the pitching. We also empty the water tanks prior to a long passage.

I agree with the average speeds, but what I have discovered in 1000 miles of sailing last year, was that with a monohull there is a close correlation between average speed and 'normal' speed. So that on a passage they might average 5.5 knots and the usual range will be 4.5 to 6.5 knots. I might average 6 knots but the range I will expect to see will be 4.5 to 8.5. We seem to gain by regular bursts of higher than average speeds.

At the end of the day though we have a cruising cat and so I have to compare her with other designs of cruising monohulls. This makes her average speed quite acceptable. As soon as I compare her with performance orientated monohulls I am disappointed - I too thought all multi's went much faster.

 

[davidbains]

My cruising tri with a modest draggy centreboard goes to windward best at 40 to 45 deg app. which I find is 5 to 10 degs worse than adjacent well sailed monos. Speeds are also modest unless reaching in blow. However a small increase in average speed makes a big difference on a longer passage. We used to do quite well in the RIOW in the eighties. A tri also sails well in light airs although with the cruising weight we are carrying now the Yanmar is called on earlier than it once was.
The recent additon of a Kiwi prop has made a noticeable difference.

 

[Boathook]

I have heard that the Gemini 105 Mc points up to and sails 30/32 degrees off the wind. The designer/builder has said it as well as a person who has ordered one - not me ! It does have boards that no doupt provide lift to windward. With regard to weight the designer said that a 10% increase in weight requires a 25% in power to obtain the same speed. Must lighten my boat this winter, but it is a cruising cat ...

 

[Rivers & creeks]

That figure of 10% / 25% is frightening! No wonder we struggled on our summer trip - why do we think we need so much? I think I am right that the basic equipped weight of a Heavenly Twins is 3.5 tonnes. Therefore 10% extra is only 350kg! (is that right?)

Time to start taking more stuff out..

 

[boatmike]

Actually Simon it's again not the same for all cats. Some are more weight sensitive than others (although most are more sensitive than monohulls).
A cruising cat, especially those built primarily to maximise the accommodation like the Fontaine Pajot things (yuk) will have either moderate or wide beam in each hull to maximise bouyancy and allow them to carry more payload but don't point high and are slow. A fast cat will have very narrow hulls and is therefore very bad at carrying any weight at all but will point high. It's a compromise. With smaller cats like yours any additional weight will have an effect. Obviously the bigger you go the more weight you can take, thats why I think bigger is better for cruising but we are all on a budget. The 445 fully equipped is nearly £400,000 (gulp) and has moderately wide hulls as does the Broadblue. Thats why I am a bit suspicious of the figures.....

 

[Talbot]

I have seen the gemini performing like this, and if you want a fast coastal cat then this is a good choice. However, I dont like dagger boards in a cruising cat, and the gemini is not designed to be able to cope with the weight required in cruising mode. I would also be very concerned in bad weather.

 

[boatmike]

G'day Brian!
Yep I know the capacities are very high. Definitely cruising boats. You don't have to fill the tanks all the time though!
As I said in another post, both have moderately wide hulls and should therefore have good load bearing capability as does my Prout. In fact Peregrine has 2 gert big keel water tanks and I can carry a ton of water if I want but when on passage any distance I run on as little water as possible and use my watermaker /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Very handy when pottering along day sailing to have loads of hot and cold water for showers and washing up though so I normally fill em up when I get where I am going! The point is with those wide hulls what is it that makes them sail higher?
I think they don't maybe. Not true anyway. They go faster cos they are bigger and that puts the aparrent wind higher.... thats what I think....

 

[boatmike]

Agree entirely Mark. Will also be rather less able to steer a straight course in a choppy sea too, but hey, it's horses for courses innit? Good fun in short bursts!

 

[jeremyshaw]

I have owned a Snowgoose, sailed a Prout 38 a few thousand miles and now sail a Fountaine Pajot Belize we've had for 4 years and several thousand miles. I have actually found the windward performance of this boat better than the Prouts. When sailing in company we generally outsail cruising boats up to the same length, and Lagoon cats. A notable exception is the very fast Shuttleworth, but you have to keep them very spartan. Our performance does suffer from having several tons of gear and stuff, but that's cruising. I think one issue with cats is they generally make more leeway than monos, so even if the pointing angle looks good, you may be sliding sideways a bit. As to the Broadblue, it's a very solid boat, but, as with most cats from that tradition, I would not personally want it in a hot climate. For a compromise of performance and live-aboard comfort we've been very happy with our Belize.

 

[boatbuilder]

Rant, I think not. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[kcrane]

I have a BB385, with the Prout style aft rig, and so a large genoa and a very large gennaker.

Sailing in the Solent is a good chance to see how we compare with mono's (speed and pointing) as was a Channel crossing where we started off at the Needles at the same time as a couple of mono's.

We find we can point up to 50 and still sail at reasonable speeds, without undue leeway. We can get up to 40, and we can follow most mono's. I suspect however we are trying hard to point and they're not. We don't seem to lose speed so much as slip sideways, so we are pointing in the right direction, but that isn't where we are going.

Moby Dick of this parish comes out on day sails occassionally, and if I go to make the tea, I come back to find we are at 35 degrees, largely I suspect him proving it doesn't stop at that angle, but it does slow down and slip, to the point that it isn't worth it.

I'm not a capable sail tuner, but getting the right sheeting angle of the genoa is important, in our case sliding the car well back on the track.

We find that the aft mast exaggerates the turning force of the main, even though it is small, so tacking isn't a foregone conclusion. We tend to back the genoa for a second or two to make sure. The alternative I discovered was to let off the main a little, and then it tacks without a problem, but then you lose sme pointing ability. Short tacking up a river would be out of the question.

Speed? 20% more than equivalent mono seems about right, so only 1 to 2 knots, but when crossing the Channel it made a big difference, we averaged 7knts in a F4, using main and gennaker, about 60 off the wind.

And finally, we sail quite happily up to mid-20's without thinking of reefing. However, if we go inside when the wind gets we find can be pushing our luck, not because you can't see, but because the calm in the saloon is not matched by the wind outside and we can be fooled into missing the need to reef.

 

[Birdseye]

I had a Prout Quest until we went back to mono's. The Quest would sail to windward at 35 degrees apparent, but 40 was much better. Leeway was about 10 degrees.

Prout themselves always reckoned that the Quest / Event sailed better than the Snowgoose / 37, and the earlier boats sailed better than the later simply for reasons of weight.

Having tried the more recent cat designs I'm not sure they are generally any better, and they certainly are uglier. Trouble is that 6'6" headroom plus 3 ft bridgedeck clearance adds up to a very funny shape on a 40 ft waterline.

 

[kcrane]

That would be a diabolical slur, if it wasn't true /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Rivers & creeks]

I read Pip Patterson (son of our HT designer) say that a single position on the genoa tracks makes a knot of difference on an HT; that seems extreme but I am sure that if I could easily alter the car position on the main and genoa I would do a lot better to windward. As it is I just accept that when lots of tacks are required I will motor sail. I will swap that any day for the many benefits of cat cruising. Incidentally, I have often thought that the HT motor sails particularly well to windward, sails set comfortably at 35 degrees and 1/3 throttle on the ob. Takes us where we are going nicely. At anything more than 45 degrees off the wind she does fine. The vast majority of our sailing is out and back again when pointing ability is of less than no consequence.

 

[simonfraser]

pasta, according to wikipedia it's maintenance, not maintanence