Cabin heat from Perkins engine plus eberspacher

[Petercatterall]

I recently offered my idea to heat my boat using an Eberspacher water heater rather than the blown air type.
The response was 3 to 1 against my plan.
Undetered I'm still contemplating the idea.
In essence I wanted to connect a 5 kw water heater into a 10mm plumbed circuit with 3 or possibly 4 car type heater matrix's. I would select the heater(s) I needed output from by switching on the fan motor at the relevant matrix.
I would still appreciate views on this!!
Last week (on a long watch) I thought that a simple start could be made by plumbing a car heater matrix from the engine (Perkins 4 108) to just underneath my feet in the wheel house! I thought that this could later be worked into the eberspacher system outlined above so that I could run heating from Eberspacher or from engine or even preheat the engine water from the Eberspacher!
I would appreciate views on this as well!!
Regarding the simple (?) matter of 1 heater matrix off the Engine..has anyone done this? does anyone know where the water outlet/inlet is on the 4 108 block? I think that the inlet is at the rear right but can't see the outlet it may be hidden under the marinised header.
Any advice (other than a visit to the shrink) welcome!!
Regards

 

[aluijten]

The biggest problem I can see is that you are interfering with the cooling system of your engine. Not so much the fact that you use the 'heat' but you are adding complexity to a vital system of your power plant. So if you do this, make sure you also add some two-way valves to be able to 'short circuit' and isolate the heating system. Using high quality coolant liquid is also usefull. I take it yopu have fresh water cooling.

Arno

 

[pappaecho]

You are quite mad until you make it work and then you will be a hero.
It depends whether the 4108 is keel cooled - direct sea water cooled or indirect cooled - that is with fresh water and salt water circuits.
Fresh water cooled have header tank either on the side or on the front of the engine as well as a cooled exhaust manifold.
The acid test if have you got two separate lumps with filler points or one? if one you are direct cooled, and you idea is a non starter, as the water temperature exiting from the system via the exhaust is only at about 40 degrees C - marginally lukewarm.
If the system is indirect, then you will be able to get 70 to 84 degrees dependant on which thermostat is fitted.
There is a complete 4108 manual in pdf format at:-
[url="http://users.firenet.uk.com/...rs.firenet.uk.com/stewartbray/perkins4108.pdf [\URL]

good luck

 

[cliff]

I have run two heater matrices of a 850cc engine so you should have no problem running 4 of your 1800cc jobbie.

Use large bore piping and keep the runs as short as possible or you may need a booster pump in the cooling circuit. You will also need balancing valves to regulate the flow through each rad or you will find the furthest away one(s) won't heat up properly. All pipes will need to be well insulated to avoid heat loss or burns as the water temp could be 90°C plus.

I use a similar method for preheating the engine by using the calorifier pump to circulate the coolant round the block and through the calorifier so your idea of using the Eber is feasible.
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“I’m as confused as a baby at a topless bar. “

 

[Petercatterall]

Thanks Cliff,
I had planned on just 10mm bore pipes but would be 15mm be more suitable?
Did you source your own heater matrices? I am trying to think of a suitable vehicle matrix of the right sort of size and shape.
Thanks again.

 

[dick_james]

When the 4-108 is vehicle fitted, the heater connections are to an outlet in the top of the cylinder head alongside the thermostat housing and teed into the hose that goes into the block just under the alternator. No reason why you could not feed at least one heater matrix. Whilst looking for a compact matrix for my kit car, I discovered that the one from a suzuki super-carry van (or bedford rascal) is a nice compact square shape just right for mounting a radial fan.

 

[qetoo]

I have a successful installation running the engine jacket coolant through a fan driven heat exchanger into the cabin. It has a 3-speed fan switch. The heat exchanger (radiator with fins) is hot when ever the engine is running. If I don't want heat, I just leave the fan OFF. Even though the heat exchanger is still hot, no heat is entering the cabin when the fan is off. I have added an electrical relay to control the fan from a room-temperature sensing thermostat. Works very well.

 

[stephenmartin]

A neighbour in a previous marina used domestic radiators in his wheel house connected into his fresh water circuit....it kept him toasty whilst out fishing

Go for it

 

[Vara]

Talk to mini-bus conversion companys,on the Iveco I drive there are two radiators enclosed in grilles which are plumbed into vehicle cooling system to heat the passenger compartment.
Neat little units 18"x4"x8" approx which put out a fair amount of heat.They look to be "off the shelf" items.
On the Ford conversions they have a fan assisted arrangement in the passenger compt.
When I get back to work I'll note the conversion companys.

http://www.euromotive.co.uk/iveco_daily.html Are the people.

 

[boatmike]

As I said last time you posted there is absolutely no reason why your system should not work in principle and Cliff appears to agree. The details are impossible to advise on without knowing your layout but I believe you should use 15mm bore hose as a minimum or the back pressure will be too great for the little pump in the eberspacher otherwise and as Cliff points out you may need to add a booster pump. If you keep the bore at 15mm and the runs fairly short you will be OK. Also do not discount the accumulative drain on your battery of the various fans in the heater matrixes, plus the heater itself. It may help to put a oneway valve in the outlet from the engine to the system to stop the eberspacher having to pre-heat all the water in your engine, when it is not in use, (unless of course you want to do this!)
Discount the postings of those who suggest you will cause problems with the engines cooling system by doing this, it is total rubbish, you are doing nothing more than would be done in a road vehicle. The water temperature will be governed by the thermostat just the same and the engine will not be affected.
The only question is will the engine put out enough heat to run 4 matrix heaters?
The answer is probably yes so long as they are not too big. Have you discounted radiators though? If you have somewhere to put them they will give out heat without current drain....

 

[Petercatterall]

Thanks again for the considered advice!
Yes I would want to isolate the engine from the system so that I had full flexibility and also 'leak limitation' in case of problems.
I the idea of 4 heaters was for flexibility again, I dont think t6hat I would be using all 4 together.
Regarding battery drain, no probs while on engine of course but I have found that with (shore powered oilfilled) rads the distribution was poor ie freezing feet. When we used an electric fan heater our feet were warm in no time.
Is it decadent to heat the wheelhouse??!!

 

[Petercatterall]

Many thanks for this I will enquire about these rads or its down to the breakers yard...no probs with that except I would like to get 4 identical units.
Regards

 

[cliff]

[ QUOTE ]
Many thanks for this I will enquire about these rads or its down to the breakers yard...no probs with that except I would like to get 4 identical units.
Regards

[/ QUOTE ]As you do not need "defrost" or "feet" or "face" heating you do not need the complex baffles and flaps usually found in car type heaters. What you really want are the matrices and blowers only and make your own boxes to hold the matrices and blowers. Look for something like Vauxhall Corsas or something similar. The best I found was Triumph Spitfire heaters - very slim and the fan was mounted between two matrices giving a very low profile.

As for pipe size I would go for min 15mm or better 22mm but without seeing the installation it is difficult to say if you would need the 22mm bore.
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“I’m as confused as a baby at a topless bar. “

 

[cliff]

Peter,

Another thought just came to me. You are aware that you need to use a flow and return system. That is the rads in parallel not in series. If you plumb them in series the first one will transfer most of the heat, the next very little heat and the remaining 2 will have SFA heat. The inlets to each rad need to be on one manifold or line and the returns on a seperate manifold or line.
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“I’m as confused as a baby at a topless bar. “

 

[boatmike]

Agree with Cliff again.
One other thing dawned on me too. Make sure the flow OUT of the engine is coupled to the flow OUT of the eberspacher and the non return valve is in the ENGINE line that flows OUT. Don't get them the wrong way around or your engine waterpump will be fighting the eberspacher pump if you start the engine with the eber on..... Personally I favour a system that manifolds the two together before going in to the calorifier, which also needs to be plumbed in exactly the same way as Cliff suggests. Treat it as just another heater. For summer use you can valve the rest of the system out to just flow water around your calorifier if you want to..... Not a lot of sense sending hot water all around the boat if you are not going to use it. As I told you before I think, I have an eber coupled just to twin coils on my calorifier with the engine coupled in as described in other words both heating coils running from either source. Heats up faster that way. I can have water hot enough for a shower in just 15 minutes!

 

[spv737]

Have 2 radiators and calorifier running off perkins 4107/eber combination which gives hot water and heating from engine whilst motoring and from eber whilst moored up but now for the mad 3rd option at the marina on shore power (16A) to get round the noisy eber - The calorifier heats the domestic hot water by transfering heat from the coil to the water tank so in theory if you heat the water tank (with 3kw immersion) then the heat from the hot water should transfer into the coil and heat the cooling system water this can then be circulated through the system with a domestic central heating pump to provide hot water to the radiators. Thus giving heating for 3 senarios of motoring,moored with no shore power and moored with shore power. I am in the process of setting this up and will post results here.

 

[Petercatterall]

Ah well someone always wants to go one better!!
Acouple of questions if I may?
Are your rads standard 'domestic' ones?
Where are the water outlets on the 4 107? I can see a plug at the rear of the block and have heard that the other connection is under the alternator, any info on this.
What size is your eber. I'm looking at a 5kw one on Ebay?
Cheers

 

[spv737]

Yes rads are domestic type 300*1000mm Doubles (screwfix website shows wattage of rads of all sizes so you can work out your requirements) Although we may replace one rad with a skirting type radiator ( ASAP supplies or Aquafax) as we are changing the rear cabin from 2 single berths to a double and haven't got the wall space for the rad.
Yes the connections are as you say and have shut off valves to isolate from the rest of the system, so dont have to heat the engine as well as the water/rads
Eber is a 5kw and is well suited, the hot water and rads are very hot.
Will get some pics of the connections for you next time i visit the boat (next week)
Cant guarantee the '3rd' option will work although did read on a canal forum that someone has done it. Some people say they have no hot water in the morning and a warm engine as overnight without an NRV the water circulates through the cooling system via gravity and takes the heat from the calorifier so the theory does work

Did look at the purpose built heat exchanger/blower units (ASAP & aquafax) to provide blown air but the fan supply is heavy on amps so not suited when no shore power.

 

[spv737]

Here are the pics of the pipe connections