Buying Privately

[thomshap]

I'm sure this has probably been covered a fair few times but I'm just about to buy a boat for £16k privately and want to make sure everything goes smoothly.

The boat is currently owned by 2 guys who have put it though their business, so in fact owned by their company - they bought it second hand and I am almost certain the VAT was paid on the original purchase but will check, though not sure is they could have subsequently claimed it back, I guess this will show up when I get the invoice from them and the VAT comes up on that.

I'll make sure I get the original builders certificate and invoices for servicing plus the keys and a bill of sale but is there anything else I need?

Finally, this may sound like a really daft one but I've seen viewed the boat 3 times on the hard at the marina, had the engine survey but how do I know that the guys selling are the owners or am I just being paranoid as no one would make up a load of paperwork - but are there any other checks I should be doing - I assume that if they have a builders certificate there is no finance outstanding.

I've bought a few boats through brokers so never had to worry and the smalltimer stuff I've bought privately is not worth worrying about, this seems more scary for some reason.

 

[Greg2]

You should complete a Bill of Sale to record the transaction (I think you mentioned this). You can get one from the RYA website (or PM me with an e-mail address and I can send you a copy). On the price bit it is normal to show £1 and other considerations as opposed to putting the actual price paid.

Worth asking for previous Bills of Sale or any other means that they can show good title and I would also get confirmation, in writing, that there is no mortgage or other encumbrance on the boat. The original VAT receipt is also useful to have.

Hope this helps

 

[Questor]

Spill the beans.

What is it? And is the outboard scarily monstrous?

 

[thejonesey]

I would ask the boatyard owners if they know the boat/vendors as they probably kept it there. Marina staff are a mine of information!

 

[DAKA]

post deleted as incorrect.

 

[jfm]

I'm sure this has probably been covered a fair few times but I'm just about to buy a boat for £16k privately and want to make sure everything goes smoothly.

The boat is currently owned by 2 guys who have put it though their business, so in fact owned by their company - they bought it second hand and I am almost certain the VAT was paid on the original purchase but will check, though not sure is they could have subsequently claimed it back, I guess this will show up when I get the invoice from them and the VAT comes up on that.

I'll make sure I get the original builders certificate and invoices for servicing plus the keys and a bill of sale but is there anything else I need?

Finally, this may sound like a really daft one but I've seen viewed the boat 3 times on the hard at the marina, had the engine survey but how do I know that the guys selling are the owners or am I just being paranoid as no one would make up a load of paperwork - but are there any other checks I should be doing - I assume that if they have a builders certificate there is no finance outstanding.

I've bought a few boats through brokers so never had to worry and the smalltimer stuff I've bought privately is not worth worrying about, this seems more scary for some reason.

I don't think many people would do a complex fraud for 16k.

You will never be sure the company owns the boat but if they have a receipt for purchase plus marina or servicing bills that's a good indicator they do

There may not be a builders certif for a 16k boat but even if there is it doesn't prove there's no finance. But finance secured on the boat is unlikely at 16k

See how big and long estbalished the company is. If muchly, they are perhaps less likely to be putting fraud trnasactions through the company. Pull the Co House fle and check the company facts and check the people you're dealing with are actually directors and shareholders of it. PM me the (exact) co name if you want me to do this online using an industrial strength Co House connection. If the company is following the rules, any finance secured on its assets (ie the boat) should be recorded on co House files and indeed if you don't check these and it turns out there is finance on the boat you wont get much sympathy from the courts becuase you are MEANT to check the co house file. That is why it's there

They might do VAT accounting under the margin scheme but that's their buisiness not yours. It is incredibly unlikely that you could have a probelm with "non vat paid status" on a 16k boat so don't worry about it. Just make sure when you agree a price with the company it is not expressed as "plus VAT" else you could pay 19.2k not 16k

 

[jfm]

Assuming the company is VAT registered you should also request an invoice on the company letterhead including vat reg no. for £13400 + VAT .

Otherwise its just a ' cash ' deal and leaves you with risk, which depending on the true value of the boat you may or may not wish to accept.

That's just completely wrong on all counts

Edit: even the arithmetic is bollox. 13.4k +VAT does not equal 16k

 

[DAKA]

That's just completely wrong on all counts

Edit: even the arithmetic is bollox. 13.4k +VAT does not equal 16k

Accept it was a quick mental arithmetic, just trying to counter the suggestion that an invoice for £1 could lead to two possible issues.........

if it is nicked then proving innocent ownership after paying a £1 would fail , it would look nicked to a court .

I am surprised you feel a vat reg company based in the UK can sell an item to a Uk resident without a vat invoice, I have assumed the boat isnt going outside the eu of course

But I am happy to accept your post, you are the expert and its no skin off my nose if it goes wrong anyway.

 

[PCUK]

Captain pedantic says £13,33333333333 + VAT! So I reckon £13,400 was pretty good mental arithmetic!

 

[MapisM]

Captain pedantic says £13,33333333333

LOL, wazzat? You actually mean £13,333.33, surely? [/colonel pedantic]

 

[jfm]

Accept it was a quick mental arithmetic, just trying to counter the suggestion that an invoice for £1 could lead to two possible issues.........

if it is nicked then proving innocent ownership after paying a £1 would fail , it would look nicked to a court .

I am surprised you feel a vat reg company based in the UK can sell an item to a Uk resident without a vat invoice, I have assumed the boat isnt going outside the eu of course

But I am happy to accept your post, you are the expert and its no skin off my nose if it goes wrong anyway.

I'm assuming all in UK too

If it is nicked then OP doesn't get ownership and the true owner (if he emerges) will get the boat, and OP will lose out. Apart from the car trade, no seller of goods can give good title he doesn't have to a buyer in the UK. Your invoice wont save OP's butt in this scenario. So it's much better if OP does all he can (Companies House check frexample) to check ownership is ok, than assume an invoice will save his bacon

I didn't say "without a vat invoice". But a UK VAT-registered company can sell without charging 20% VAT in this scenario, generally. It's the margin scheme. (Incidentally, ref your 3rd para, if a UK VAT reg company sells/delivers to outside the eu it still has to issue a VAT invoice)

 

[MapisM]

(Incidentally, ref your 3rd para, if a UK VAT reg company sells/delivers to outside the eu it still has to issue a VAT invoice)

Doh! You're saying that a VAT exempt invoice is still a VAT invoice, I guess?
We must establish a pedantic club, one of these days...

 

[thomshap]

Thanks all, it's always good to get good advice on these things.

Questor, you know that the Mrs never lets me drive since I bought a bought a RIB, she loves it, well we found this Cougar going cheap with a pair of 300hp Mercs on the back, couldn't resist, think it was you who gave us the idea.









....... sorry, did you fall off your chair? only joking, it's 5.8m with a 115 on it, we wanted something faster than your tender.

 

[jfm]

Doh! You're saying that a VAT exempt invoice is still a VAT invoice, I guess?
We must establish a pedantic club, one of these days...

You started the pedantry so I guessed it was ok

Actually, in UK we do not use the word "exempt" in this context the way you and most other EU countries do (whether in English or local language). We do have sales that are exempt from VAT, but the sales that you would call "exempt with credit" are called "zero rated" here, as opposed to "exempt". We treat these transactions as VATable, but at a zero rate, and that status allows for refund of input tax (which "exempt" status doesn't here in UK). Ex-EU sales are "zero rated", in the UK. Still a bit pedantic and dull, I accept, but in the UK there is a significance in coding sales as 0% VATable, rather than exempt.

All highly academic on a £16k RIB

 

[Questor]

....... sorry, did you fall off your chair? only joking, it's 5.8m with a 115 on it, we wanted something faster than your tender.

Of course you do!

 

[thomshap]

That's is, you can almost see ours in the back ground!!

Are you down this w/e? I'll be about tomorrow tarting up the raggie.

 

[DAKA]

I'm assuming all in UK too

If it is nicked then OP doesn't get ownership and the true owner (if he emerges) will get the boat, and OP will lose out. Apart from the car trade, no seller of goods can give good title he doesn't have to a buyer in the UK. Your invoice wont save OP's butt in this scenario. So it's much better if OP does all he can (Companies House check frexample) to check ownership is ok, than assume an invoice will save his bacon

I didn't say "without a vat invoice". But a UK VAT-registered company can sell without charging 20% VAT in this scenario, generally. It's the margin scheme. (Incidentally, ref your 3rd para, if a UK VAT reg company sells/delivers to outside the eu it still has to issue a VAT invoice)

My post was a very loose general comment, I am well aware you are most likely to be the one on the forum who would be prepared to post the most comprehensive response.

I only got involved when the op was been recommended to accept a £1 receipt from a VAT registered company.

If I had realized you were reading I wouldnt have got involved .
For all I know you could have been playing on your boat and not following the thread until it was too late.

As to my VAT calc, £13000 + 20% £2600 plus £400 shortfall , alright I accept it was a bit lazy but thought it demonstrated my point adequately .


I feel chastised , but I will get over it in a post or two however I remain concerned that others may be put off contributing following your use of vulgar language


Alright its off my chest and I'm over it 1/2 a post later

I am interested in your ownership of stolen goods bit..........

It was my general belief that anyone buying something at knock down price should have been more aware of the possibility that it was stolen.
Anyone buying a product at full price being duped could claim ownership and the original owner / Insurers may have a problem to recover property they know is theirs but now is in the possession of someone else, a new owner.
The police dont have the power to take the item away from them which only leaves a long drawn out court battle, I would expect a deal to be done on a boat valued at £16k rather than a court battle.

A vat receipt addressed to the purchaser for market value is far superior to an old vat receipt and 64/64 share @ £1.

 

[thomshap]

Fortunately, SWMBO is an audit partner at one of the big four, when it comes to VAT she'll know what to do, but also, because of her position we need to be squeaky clean and have everything in order.

 

[Whitelighter]

Assuming the company is VAT registered you should also request an invoice on the company letterhead including vat reg no. for £13400 + VAT .

Otherwise its just a ' cash ' deal and leaves you with risk, which depending on the true value of the boat you may or may not wish to accept.

Yet more VAT bol locks.

I cant even be bothered to go into it again save to say, if you are insistent on advising people on here at least try to understand it yourself first

 

[DAKA]

Yet more VAT bol locks.

I cant even be bothered to go into it again save to say, if you are insistent on advising people on here at least try to understand it yourself first

Is it just me that is missing something here

How can a UK vat registered company legally sell a boat it owns in the UK to a UK resident to be used in the UK without charging VAT