buying in netherlands

[john]

I've seen a secondhand boat I fancy with a broker in the netherlands. can anybody tell me what th e procedure us ref. offer(how much below is norm?) and buying process? Many thanks .
John

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[pheran]

I think the answer to the 'what to offer' question is as variable in the Netherlands as it is in the UK. Some seem to think that 10% below the asking price is normally expected, but I bought there in the Spring this year and had an offer of 25% below accepted. Mind you, the vendor was a rich widow and the boat was a present she had previously bought for her toy-boy!! So perhaps price wasn't the major consideration.
The puchase procedure was vaguely similar to ours but with a couple of significant (and advantageous) differences. Terminology differed too, involving a Memorandum of Agreement and a Protocol of Delivery. Rather than bore the panel here, PM me if you want a blow by blow account.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>A hangover is just the Wrath of Grapes</font color=blue>

 

[vyv_cox]

Your word is your bond over here. If you say you will buy, that's the deal done, no backing out.

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[pheran]

Agreed. UK brokers try to prise a 10% deposit out of you the minute you say 'Thats nice'. Buying in Holland, I didn't have to part with any money until almost the end of the process.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>A hangover is just the Wrath of Grapes</font color=blue>

 

[rudolph_hart]

Bought in holland 3 years ago. Private sale. Negotiated in same way as over here (x off for this, y off for that etc). Sum agreed over a beer in the cockpit. Gave cheque as deposit (he never banked it). Organised currency Bank Draft. Arrived next week by car, met vendor and we all went to dinner. Vendor had special Bill Of Sale paperwork ready for completion, which was required as the yacht had Dutch Registration. I handed over bank draft, he gave me back my cheque, then we sailed away. I did hear that the Dutch banking system played around with his money for 3 weeks before they actually let him have it!

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[steffen]

Can i have her address please.

Happy sailing, Steffen

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[alex_g]

Decent brokers should only take a 10% deposit at the point of signing the contracts.

Whilst some broker's Sale & Purchase Agreements are written in a way that makes them appear very difficult to wiggle out of (there are some rogues out there), a proper Agreement such as ours (Berthons) accepts the fact that if you are not happy with the survey report and do not wish to proceed then you should be able to rescind and get your deposit back.

As the yacht is contractually under offer for that period of time (as much as 4wks+), no further offers can be put forward to the owner.

The owner will also have to expose themselves to publication of any survey findings. Our duty of disclosure is such that if one of our listings is found to have proven defects, we WILL disclose them to all future parties.

The very least that a potential purchaser can do is hand over a 10% deposit as a sign of intent!

The deposit can also be used to pay any yard costs incurred by the purchaser in the event that it all goes wrong.

Try to imagine for one second (as a boat owner and potential vendor) the abuse that the brokerage system will endure if the 10% deposit did not exist...

<Boatshow time> "Excuse me sir, I'd like to buy the Volvo 60, can I take it for a seatrial,,, of course I'll sign a contract as I know I can reject the yacht after my little free-of-charge day charter!"



<hr width=100% size=1>can occasionally be found in his office at Berthon International

 

[pheran]

Having noticed this somewhat dated thread had been resurrected, I was surprised and delighted to see an 'industry head' poking up above the parapits. Let me welcome and encourage you Alex.

There are couple of points in your post I would want to take issue with but first let me recount my experiences of buying from an international broker in Holland last year.

1. We found a boat we liked and expressed an interest
2. We asked for unfettered access to the boat to conduct our own 'internal survey'
No problem, only no engine starts because they are still winterised (this was in
February) So we spent the whole of the following day lifting panels, unscrewing
this that and the other, and generally trying out everything we could think of.
Found about half a dozen faults
3. Made an offer on the boat substantilly lower than asking price, but subject to
the faults we had found and any thrown up by later inspection/ survey. Owner
wriggled a tiny tiny little bit which I gave him as a facesaver and the deal was
then done. As vyv-cox says above, over there your word is your bond.
4. Having returned home to the UK we commissioned a survey by a very
well-recommended HISWA-registered marine surveyor. He found very little and
nothing requiring repair. Nice report tho' and it was refreshing to see a
paragraph stating that the report would not include minor internal isues (like
stained cushions?) which I was more than capable of picking up on myself.

NOW THERE IS A LITTLE DELAY - still bloody cold out there and yard would rather
avoid the job of re-winterising the engines. I was in no hurry anyway. PLEASE NOTE - that apart from the £400 hull survey bill, I have not yet been asked for a single penny but all parties understand the boat is sold subject to...

5. Weather gets warmer and I commission local Volvo main-agent to carry out
complete mechanical inspection. Bloody good value for money, costs 306Euros
and his priced up report shows need for repairs costing something in excess of
3000Euros. Bloody Hell says owner, but thats the deal and at last I sign a piece
of paper. Owner signs a copy too acknowledging all repairs (itemised) found by
me and by Mr Volvo are for 'her account' I pay 10% deposit
6. Mr Volvo takes boat away and does all the jobs, gives it a thorough sea-trail
then phones me and says its a cracking boat.
7. We return to Holland, coduct a final sea-trial then sign the Protocol of Delivery,
pay balance of price and we move on board. 'Dont know what your plans are'
says broker, 'but if you would like to stay here for a while, you can have a
months moorings for free'

I found the whole experience far more relaxed, friendly and pleasant than any
of my previous dealings with UK brokers. Sure, it was a little slow (11/12 weeks)
but we concluded when I wanted to at the start of the season. BTW - we are absolutely delighted with the boat and have had two enquiries as to whether we are think of selling it!!

Now to the points in your post

<font color=blue>.... then you should be able to recind and get your deposit back....</font color=blue> Weasel Words. Not 'should be able' Whats wrong with 'Your deposit will be returned'

<font color=blue>....the very least a potential purchaser can do is to hand over a 10% deposit</font color=blue>. Even with the relatively modest craft most on these forums are involved in, this represents a substantial amount of money, £25K or more. How much do you really need as a signal of intent. I would have thought £1000 would have detereed all but the most well-heeled time-wasters. And what happens to this money? If you say it goes into a non-interest bearing account I would question your financial judgement. So........must be a nice little revenue stream for a broker with say, 30-40 boats in process at any one time. Spose Contracts are worded to ensure this is not illegal but morality is highly dubious.
<font color=blue>...the deposit can also be used topay any yard costs incurred by the purchaser... </font color=blue>. Only with his express agreement, I hope. The money was lodge as a deposit. What happens if the purchaser disputes a yard cost with you? Do you feel its right to dip in his deposit pot just because you have access to it?

In essence then, why can't UK brokers be more like their Dutch counterparts. Bet they sell as many if not more boats than you do.

Phew! My longest post ever on ybw. Been quite cathartic really! Good luck


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>A convert to steel boats and displacement cruising - the only way to go</font color=blue>

 

[andyball]

nice post.....it is surprisingly cold there in winter.


Not much to add,we found some brokers much more demanding for a deposit & signed contract asap,others only too keen to arrange a trial before any paperworkat all.

Some I spoke to at length thought that the offered price should account for anything small & reasonably obvious (scratches,rust,lights,domestic equipment not working etc) & that survey reduction only for substantial faults, not long list of "tiny" things.

Others were keen to impress that everything should work & if it didn't,& the price wasn't reduced first... bring it back & we'll fix it free....(one even suggested a reduction if we took the boat to UK, since we wouldn't we coming back asking them to fix things).

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[victor_meldrew]

yeah Agreed. Thanks for that pheran.

Couple of supplementaries - did you pay in GBP or Euros? If Euros, how did you convert and transfer?

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[pheran]

Everything in Euros. Following advice given here on ybw, I didn't use the banks but went instead to one of the specialist foreign exchange agencies in the City,
SGM-FX (they have a web-site if you're interested). They offered a very substantially better exchange rate and also advised me to 'buy forward' ie buy and pay for Euros in February for delivery on what ever dates I nominated. As the £ was losing ground against the Euro this seemed like a good idea. And it was. The combination of the better exchange rate and forward purchase saved me a whopping €12000 overall. SGM-FX by the way, were brilliant. (usual disclaimers)

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>A convert to steel boats and displacement cruising - the only way to go</font color=blue>

 

[Chris_Robb]

I bought in 1997 through a broker in Holland. The contract used (which was in English) ran as follows:

1. The seller has to describe the boat accurately and disclose any problems.
2. The buyer makes an offer on the basis of the known problems
3. The Buyer pouts down a 10 % deposit withe the brokers - to go into a client account.
4. The Buyer arranges a survey
5. During the survey the surveyor will list and provide a cost for replacement (or if very old equipment - a deduction value). The total of these costs will then come off the original offer price. The seller cannot back out at this point - nor can the buyer.
6. If the total deductions from the offer price exceed 10% of the value of the original offer the whole sale is off and starts again with a new offer acceptance.

I thought it was a good system, as it allowed the buyer or seller to get out if there were substantial survey problems. It does stop the shenanigans that go on over small items.

Good luck.

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