Buying advice needed

[Colin24]

Advice from the panel please.

I’m right on the brink of purchasing my first sailing boat – it will be a bilge keel MAB circa 5,000. Funds are burning a whole in my pocket and I’ve homed in on a couple of potential boats and I can hardly contain my excitement. Questions are these:-

One of the boats is a ‘one off’ rather than being a known class that may have an owners association etc… Am I right to assume a ‘one off’ will be harder to sell on and therefore command a lower price or represent ‘more boat’ for a given price?

Secondly does the panel advise having a survey done on a boat in this price range or save the money towards inevitable repairs?

Lastly, I’ve been wondering about this for some time but never had the courage to ask such a daft question before. On an average late 70s’ GRP bilge keeler 23 foot long, how do you inspect/repair stuff up at the top of the mast? It seems to me that any attempt to be winched up would result in reaching a certain height and then the whole lot turns over! Or are they deceptively stable? Do I need to have the mast un-stepped to gain access?

Your help greatly appreciated

Colin

 

[stevebrassett]

My two pennyworth. One advantage of buying an established class is that you will see other boats the same as yours, and can get ideas from them. With regard to the survey, you will probably find that your insurers will want a survey carried out on the boat before they will insure it. If so, be prepared to throw away some of the stuff you get with your new purchase, and have to buy lots, lots more. As an example, my 23foot boat is 20 years old, and I had to rip out the cooker and gas installation (or re-do it to modern standards) and replace the fire extinguishers, and buy flares, lifebouy, bigger anchor, etc. etc. etc.

Didn't regret it for a minute, though.

I have not had to go up the mast, yet, as I had it taken down over the winter to install a new VHF aerial, but I would (probably). The boat seems stable enough to me to stand climbing up the mast.

 

[simonfraser]

buy something established if it's your first boat, it's bound to be the wrong one, easier to sell.

i've had four diferent cruiser cats, never needed a survey for the insurance.

 

[simonfraser]

p.s. when you go and buy one take a buddy that knows about boats, then you may not need a surveyor

 

[Parsonsheath]

I would take the view that the £300 (approx) spent on a survey is well worth it, you will learn any major faults, and then can renegotiate on price or withdraw to look for better.

On the mast bit you will be delighted to know that the weight of you at the top of that mast is minimal compared to the weight of a sail full of wind!

Before you do proceed why not try getting some sailing experience with a friend, or make a friend of someone with a boat, we all start at sometime, but your questions imply you are at the lower end of the learning curve, and the further up you get the greater your understandfing, and you will have a better idea of what you would really like, and yes, one off's may be great value, but could prove more difficult to sell on when you move to the next stage of your dreams.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

If climbing the mast tips the boat over then the sails when filled will certainly do so!..... seriously, you'll be able to climb the mast without turning the boat over....you just won't enjoy it!

I've bought a one off/rarity, and don't regret it one little bit. I think I got a lot more boat for my money......... in reality the problems are all manageable, especially with the help of this marvellous forum and all the skills and knowledge that exist here....

Only advice I would offer would be to ensure that as much documentation as possible comes with the boat.. eg manuals, instructions, receipts etc etc especially for components like the engine, gearbox, any electrical equipment, heads etc, as this will help enormously in identifying and sourcing spares... if you don't have this material, then be prepared for some serious tracking/hunting/researching work, having to build relationships with local one off manufacturing engineers, or enforced replacements of whole items!......

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Also should add... building on Stevebrassetts point...

whatever you do, make sure you allow another £1000 to £1500 for the bits that you will almost certainly have to replace when you get your boat such as the charts, almanacs, dividers, batteries, flares, torches, hand bearing compass, seacocks, pipes etc etc..... it would be a shame to buy the boat, and then not be able to get her on the water....

PS... I'm based at Neptune at the top of the Orwell, just round the corner from Orwell yacht club.... perhaps see you on the water in the not too distant future?

Good luck with your hunt!

 

[alienzdive]

Offer £5000 on a £7500 boat, you never know what you may find. Inevitably there will be imediate repairs maintenance and ongoing costs. You will be able to find the money for these.

I would never get a survey myself, I always believe that when I purchase a boat I purchase it with all its faults anyway, but if it is your first boat pick the owners brains, get as much info as you can and take a mate who knows about boats.

Have fun and good luck.

 

[Stemar]

I was in the same position as you almost exactly two years ago, so I know how you feel. We ended up with a 1970 Snapdragon 24. Anyway, FWIW, here's my 2 penny'th.

I'll let those more knowledgeable than me answer the question about one-offs versus a known class, but IMHO, the condition of each is likely to be more important. Make a list of must-haves, wants and would-be-nices and use that to compare the two, but don't be afraid to walk away from both! The right boat will wink at you and say "Buy me!" Don't go for the boat that looks right on paper, but leaves you cold.

I didn't have a survey done, but I took a mate who know what he was doing along. Between us, we didn't miss anything a surveyor would have found. Most grp boats from that era were built like tanks anyway. If you want comprehensive insurance, you'll have to get a survey done

I'm not the fount of all knowledge on small boat stability, but I would expect a 23ft bilge keeler MAB would have plenty of stability for a normal person to go up the mast in smooth water or standing on her keels on a firm surface, but a surveyor wouldn't go up the mast anyway. I made sure the lights worked and all the blocks ran smoothly, then used binoculars to have a look around.

One thing to beware of. You will have a to do list of, say 20 items when you buy the boat. In a year's time, you will have done 50 jobs (at least), but the to do list will now be 40 items. This is a fact of life. Either live with it or don't buy a boat /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Colin24]

Thanks a lot for all the fast replies.

Very pleased to have gotten the mast climbing question off my chest. I’ve been up the mast of larger boats before but was unsure if this still feasible with this size if boat.

I have a couple of experienced mates lined up to give any potential boats the once over, but think I’ll still have a survey as a bargaining tool.

I pretty much know what I’m after in a boat and know the sort of sailing I’ll be doing in my area East coast, Orwell based. I’ve been scouring the net, small ads, brokers for more than a year now while saving and getting thru the RYA courses (did my dazed kipper practical in February)

The irony is, after all that searching and finding out about the various classes within my limited price range. The boat I most favour turns out to be a ‘one off’ in my own club

I’m stuck out of the UK until the end of the month and I’m hoping to negotiate the purchase as soon as I return.

Thanks again

Colin

 

[Colin24]

Thanks Steve,

Believe me, It's winking alright /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Colin24]

Nas

Thanks for that, I very much enjoyed reading your blog last week and will keep an eye out for Magna Carta

Colin

 

[FlyingSpud]

I know it sounds daft, but one thing I learned when looking at boats is to chuck a bucket of water over the windows and the fore hatch, best way to find if it leaks (and surprising how often they do). If the seller objects, well, that tells you all you need to know

 

[William_H]

Climbing masts is a daft idea. Certainly on my tender 21 fter it becomes quite unstable with large rolling action with me half way up. While your 23 fter will be better and certainly better if it is sitting on its bilge keels I would recommend you set the mast up for lowering on a hinged tabernacle. It means that bridges are no problem and you can always unstep the mast yourself with a little help. regards olewill

 

[Cobra25]

If you employ a surveyor, get references from him, ask him what professional organisations he belongs to and ask for a copy of his professional indemnity insurance. Best of luck

 

[Birdseye]

Colin

Nothing to be embarrassed about the questions - all the old salts on here had to learn. However you are in a dangerous position - money burning a hole in your pocket, wanting to buy something about which your knowledge is pretty close to nil. Bluntly, you are a sheep for shearing and someone will do so.

Best advice I can give you is to put thew money in a high interest account, join a sailing club, and learn more about whats what. If you do that you'll be amazed how much and how quickly your view of what is sensible will change.

I know its boring advice and not what you want to do. But ts sense

 

[Sea Devil]

the best advice I was ever given before I owned a boat was 'buy one'

The only way to learn to skipper a boat, is to skipper a boat - fun - adventures - mistakes - small triumphs - the best thing in the world is simply messing about in boats - or not and if it is not for you at least you know...

I think then you buy the boat you like the look of the most but try to make sure you do not pay over the odds - guess work and looking at similar boats advertised for sale.

What ever boat you buy there will be things wrong with it - goes with the territory.

The only mistake I ever made buying a boat was when I employed a surveyor! Waste of money - if you are slightly practical you can see for your self if the hull is OK - mast and rigging OK - Sails not too tired or budget for new ones.
Have a motor round in it and see if there is smoke pouring out the back - after that just assume some of the gizmo's will need replacing. Sometimes you can negotiate better by offering to buy without a survey - worked for me last time..

Buy the boat you like most if she appears to be sound and value for money!

 

[Evadne]

I would second that. There is more to owning your own boat than her sailing performance, and there are things that you will learn from your own boat that you will never pick up from sailing with friends. I don't agree about the lack of surveyor though, especially on your first boat. It is a great negotiating tool if needed, but more importantly they should be methodical and know all the boxes that have to be ticked. Even if you make a full list and go over her, unless you (and your friend) are experienced then there are likely to be corners where you wouldn't think to look.

 

[stevebrassett]

Be aware that, if your insurance company insists on a survey, they will also insist on all of the recommendations being carried out, which may result in you carrying out work and spending money before you even get the boat on the water.

Everyone is covering their own butt nowadays.

 

[LeonF]

Depends on how much you are paying for a boat ? On anything over about £5000 I would get at least a structural survey. I agree most surveys have so many ifs and buts that unless it was a complete turkey you would have to spend a fortune trying to get some compensation. And don't be afraid to offer a ridiculously low price ! Boats are not like houses, and most owners are keen to sell, especially if they have another boat on the way. I never had a survey on my first boat, a Fantasie 19 which I paid £2300 for, and was about £5000 more then I should have paid. I compounded it further by buying new sails, which the guy I sold it to for £2000 benefited from. We have a loveley marine ply Caprice in my club which the owner is so keen to sell, a combination of losing his wife and retiring, that he is contemplating chopping it up and selling the-- rare for this boat --inboard diesel! And as he was a chippie it's been very well maintained too!