Buying a yacht, advice required

[mcanderson]

Mrs McA and myself are about to buy our first yacht. Having had discussions with some brokers I would like to ask for some help.

This is the process as I have had it explained to me:

1. Find the yacht you like. Dockside inspections only.
2. Make as offer; this was described as within £1k of the asking price (seems a tad restrictive).
3. On acceptance of the offer, place a 10% deposit (sounds perfectly acceptable).
4. Arrange for a test sail and survey.
5. All fine swap money for yacht.
6. Sail away, live happily ever after (or until you decide you need a bigger/newer/different yacht)

All sounds fine, but I would rather test sail prior to making an offer as this is our 1st yacht we have number of options and would prefer to move quickly. If things are not as they seem, I haven’t put down 10% of the asking price and can move on to another yacht. I can understand trying to discourage fender kickers and brokers not wanting to waste time of test sails, but am I missing something.

I don’t want to come across hard nosed as I would rather do things as honest straight people and I have nothing to hide. Am I just asking too much?

 

[peterb26]

1. Find yacht.
2. Crawl all over it and do as thorough an inspection you can yourself.
3. Test sail. (difficult if its on the hard though!)
4. If happy make an offer - subject to survey. You say "within £1k" - I'd say "within 25%". Its a buyers market and you can always go up, never down.
5. If accepted - place deposit with broker, but only on receipt of necessary MCA paperwork, and ensuring no nasty clauses like "no further reductions after survey".
6. Get survey - then proceed further if still ok.

 

[graham]

Its a buyers market and there are hundreds of thousands of boats for sale. Make an offer as low as you feel may be acceptable . Even 50% of the asking price maybe ok if its been on the market for a while and the owner has his eye on a new boat.

You may save a fortune in survey fees by taking a knowledgeable person with you on the initial inspection. If you dont know anyone personally consider paying a local shipwright /boat yard worker to come with you.You will still need a survey on the boat you intend to buy but may weed out a few dogs without the need for a full survey,

To be honest if its a well known make of boat a test sail is almost pointless. By allmeans ask to see/hear the engine running and under load.But unless she is a one off boat a test sail wont prove anything much.

 

[paulrae]

Been there and done that quite recently.
The borker obviously tells you to make an offer close to the asking price, as he's on a percentage commission, and if your offer's close to the asking price the deal will go through.
This subject has been discussed a number of times in the forum, so have a search, that's where I got my advice from.
I made a once-only offer of 10% below the asking price, as that was as far as my budget would stretch. It was turned down initially, but accepted after 3-4 days when the owner realised it wasn't going to be improved.
It also depends on the yacht that you want to buy. If there are loads on the market locally and the owner has bought something new, you're probably in the driving seat. But it will obvioulsy be very difficult to find that out.
Essentially it comes down to how much the boat is worth to you. Have a look around the internet for similar vessels. work out what the current value range is. That done, make an offer that you're happy with. It's a bit like asking a girl out. Be ambitious. Every now and again you'll get lucky. But if you really think you're in love it would be a shame to lose her by being a tight git!
Good luck

 

[jimmynoboat]

Does it have to be a broker? plenty of private sales out there. In fact, if your budget is around 20k I know one you could probably try out this weekend (weather permitting)

 

[Talbot]

The difficulty with buying the first boat is to have the knowledge of what you want to use the boat for, and what actually meets that requirement. Some people dont care, and just buy what takes their fancy, and if it is not right, they discard and move on to another.

I have neither the inclination (nor the money) to be able to do that.

For my first boat, I had had several holidays in a number of different types, I then sat down and worked out what I wanted, and then got SWMBO to do the same. Naturally they were very different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I then tried to analyse what it was that we both needed/wanted/would like. I analysed a number of boats (regardless of cost at this stage) to discover a priority order for further study. We narrowed this down to 5 boats, and when we then applied the cost factor as well, there was an immediate front runner. We had a couple of trial sails courtesy of the owners club, ad then agreed that this would be the type for us. That analysis worked for a twenty year ownership.

When you ask for recomendations, you get other peoples likes/dislkes colouring their answer, The only people who can work out whether a boat pushes your buttons - is you

 

[Nick_Pam]

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest if its a well known make of boat a test sail is almost pointless. By allmeans ask to see/hear the engine running and under load.But unless she is a one off boat a test sail wont prove anything much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless as with us on our first yacht purchase, we liked the layout of the yacht in question but had never been out at sea in that make/model of yacht.....

I'd always want a sea-trial under those circumstances...we actually chartered a Sun Odyssey 40.3 before we ordered ours in 2005, to make sure she was "as expected" in use.

As for the offer....whatever you may offer, you might be surprised at the response....

 

[arfa]

It might be worth putting a "what would you buy" type of question to the forum with a budget and a description of what type of usage/where/how long aboard/how many aboard to see what advice you get. Whilst you will get lots of opinions, they'll be more impartial than a broker's view /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
I certainly found the view of forumites helpful in asking the right questions even if I didn't go for their recommended boat.
Good luck anyway with the purchase - whilst mine sometimes feels like a blank cheque the pleasure derived has been priceless

 

[Skents]

A test sail is a difficult issue. Having sold quite a few boats over the years I would be reluctant to offer a test sail unless an offer had been made.

There are plenty of people who will happily feign interest for a couple of hours free sailing. A friend of ours came up with an interesting solution to this - he said he would happily take prospective buyers for a test sail but they would have to pay a "charter fee" which was refundable if they bought the boat.

Same principle as paying for a purchaser's flight to view a boat if deal goes through. Imagine it could be tricky with the insurance company though.

I guess it depends on how desperate the seller is...

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I take it that you appreciate that (with a normal YBDSA style contract) if the survey reveals horrors, and the buyer won't renegotiate appropriately, then you are entitled to your deposit back? (read the contract carefully!)

 

[peterb26]

Sorry Skents - I disagree.

I have yet to be asked for any form of "charter fee" when I have trialled boats in the past, nor would I consider buying from anyone who suggested it!

Theres no shortage of boats for sale; its selling them thats the difficult part!

 

[lw395]

Agree with Ancient Mariner.
Buy a knowledgeable friend a few pints (after) looking at it.
If theres any issue, try to get quote to fix it, then make an offer of what your happy to pay.
Be clear about what's included.
Its better to walk away before paying out for a surveyor, particularly if the boat has to be lifted.
I think its a buyers market just now, but I've just sold to someone from euroland, so the fall of the pound has its compensations!
I think a lot of asking prices are quite high, it sometimes pays to think of them as a total budget for getting the boat sorted and sailing it for a year. I 've heard of some quite big 'discounts'.
Also owners/class associations are good places to buy and sell, as well as get help and info from people, particularly if your looking at boats with any racing pedigree.
But I would always try to buy the 'best' boat not the cheapest.
HTH

 

[Stemar]

The only sensible advice is, "Don't"

But if you were sensible, you wouldn't even be thinking about it, so FWIW, here's my 2p'th, all strictly IMHO and without warranty...

You have to buy with your heart as well as your head. You'll never be happy with a boat that ticks all the technical boxes but leaves your heart untouched. The right boat wil wink at you and whisper, "I'm the one" in your ear. Take note, but suppress all sentiment unmercifully while see if she ticks the boxes and if there are any obvious problems. A few small blisters on a boat more than about 10 years old isn't anything to worry about too much, but you might be able to negotiate a drop in price.

Now think about any unticked boxes and problems and decide if she's the love of your life in spite of them or an old slapper because of them! Don't be afraid to walk away from something you're not sure of. There are plenty more boats out there!

 

[Abestea]

My tuppence worth, for what it is worth, is to examine your finances carefully. The annual running costs (berthing/mooring fees, fuel, travel to and from boat, insurance, etc) can soon mount up plus the boat will need some maintenance each and every year. Never will have to never happens. Depending on the age of the boat, you can expect a lot more cost and work unless you are fortunate to have a previous owner who is really proactive with their boat. Also keep an eye on what kit comes with the boat. You may be surprised what things you dont have and how much it costs to purchase (rib, outboard, lifejackets, oilskins, etc).

I spent a lot of time looking for a boat last spring and got one that i really like. The main problem with it is the maintenance that i have to do on it. I have learnt loads through this but it has been an expensive lesson. The advice of buying the best boat you can afford is critical to it.

Still i would not give up my boat for all the tea in china, but i may just do it for all the malt whisky in islay.

 

[Searush]

No-one seems to have pointed out the obvious yet. The broker is PAID by the seller. he is the seller's agent. Trust what he tells you about as much as you would a car salesman trying to push a used car on you.

I'm with the "buy privately" group. If the price is right, you will both be slightly aggreived initially, but remain friends for a long time after. Private sellers will normally go the extra mile to help you.

Consider the sort of sailing you will mostly do & choose a class of yacht to suit the local conditions & your style of sailing. Have a list of several suitable classes & look at dozens. One or two will jump out as "just what you want". Just for fun, check out a "wild card" now & again - you may get a pleasant surprise. Then start the checking & bargaining.

Take your time. With the financial situation & credit difficulties we have in UK at present, time is on your side.

 

[maxi77]

A lot of good advice here, just a few points though. First take your time, look at a lot of boats to get an idea of what is on the market in your price range, dont be worried about asking to see boats, they want to sell they should be falling over themselves to please you. At the moment as suggested time is on your side so don't be rushed, even if you lose a deal there will be another one.

Work out your budget well in advance so you don't get 'over excited' when you see a boat you like. Before making an offer work out how much you will need to spend extra, new dinghy, outboard etc etc and take that of your budget, you now have the max price that boat X is worth for you, then offer less, how much less will be your choice but I would suggest at least 10%, that allows you to be 'generous' and still keep in budget. If you have reached the 'walk away point' tell them and make sure they understand you are at your limit.

Unless you can afford to throw away the money you are spending the offer must be subject to survey and if you think it appropriate test sail. Remeber to talk to the surveyor before and after about any thing that concerns you. If the survey indicates that work is needed, be hard nosed, this is your money. Remember most insurers will want to see a suvey before giving cover so you will have to carry out any work they require, make sure you have the cash in your budget.

Look at as many boats as you can and don't be afraid of looking at boats you cant buy, you learn from the experience.

Searching for a boat should be fun interesting and rewarding, so good luck and enjoy yourself, you are on the start of a path that will give you great satisfaction, but will cost you all the money you can afford though in the end you will not grudge it.

 

[mcanderson]

Thank you for the feedback.

I agree completely with the take the time and look around.

I haven't started looking at privately sold yachts, but will do so now.

I also fully understand the broker is working for the seller and the higher the price the higher his commission.

I am not in a hurry (my aiming point is next season), although I have had a rush to the head once so far.

I will try to find a friend to help in the process, but I will not pay for a test sail. I am sticking with makes that I have chartered previously so I have a base line.

Of to search for private yachts,

McA

 

[wotayottie]

One last piece of advice - buy something that is popular and made by a respected big manufacturer. That way it should be easy to re0-sell because you are ubnliky to buy the boat of a lifetime first time round.

Whatever you do, avoid the dirty old MAB sold to you as a "good seaboat" but with tired everything.