ClassicPlastic
Well-Known Member
Deleted User,
CF85s are available, and they reflect the charts in 2000, with no updates since then.
CF85s are available, and they reflect the charts in 2000, with no updates since then.
Buying a used boat - #*&%$* owners!
- Thread starter ClassicPlastic
- Start date
[2068]
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Sorry, should have been more explicit.
I'd expect the "nearly new" price to start at least 17.5% below the new price, simply cos of VAT. On a 100K boat, this is a fair chunk, and largely determines the "year one" price even before you start deducting for stuff that isn't shipshape.
I'd expect the "nearly new" price to start at least 17.5% below the new price, simply cos of VAT. On a 100K boat, this is a fair chunk, and largely determines the "year one" price even before you start deducting for stuff that isn't shipshape.
DavidJ
Well-Known Member
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I'd expect the "nearly new" price to start at least 17.5%
[/ QUOTE ]
You're in the logic trap again. It's demand and supply at the end of the day. As an example the new mini was worth more after one year that what people paid for it when it came out.
I'd expect the "nearly new" price to start at least 17.5%
[/ QUOTE ]
You're in the logic trap again. It's demand and supply at the end of the day. As an example the new mini was worth more after one year that what people paid for it when it came out.
duncan
Well-Known Member
re hours - I don't disagree with the wider principle but in practice wearing the engines out isn't going to be the cause of replacement in most cases. As everythign else it's a matter of the actual example but my engine is reckoned to be good for 10000 hours acording to the manufacturer. Therefore I suggest that if you were buying the boat in it's first 5 years of life there is no practical difference between 2 years old and 500 hours or 5 years old and 50 hours - only emotional. The real practical difference will be as a result of the factors already listed.
I was using the term showroom condition as that seems to be the benchmark often used for newish boats. I agree your definition is much more reasonable.
re the specfics of the chartplotter as you raise it this surely all assumes that you are already in a contracted sale stage ie you have contracted to purchase at a price subject to......and is a different issue to what should it be worth and the relationships between asking price and any offer.
However this does raise the issue of disclosure on boat sales - what exactly is the legal position on this? Do you have to answer any questions to the best of your knowledge or are you actually required to present the boat for sale disclosing every possible factor?
I was using the term showroom condition as that seems to be the benchmark often used for newish boats. I agree your definition is much more reasonable.
re the specfics of the chartplotter as you raise it this surely all assumes that you are already in a contracted sale stage ie you have contracted to purchase at a price subject to......and is a different issue to what should it be worth and the relationships between asking price and any offer.
However this does raise the issue of disclosure on boat sales - what exactly is the legal position on this? Do you have to answer any questions to the best of your knowledge or are you actually required to present the boat for sale disclosing every possible factor?
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
My guess is that most land has'nt moved since 2000 so I think they'd still be of some use /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
duncan
Well-Known Member
thanks - whilst in the real world the quantum of that might be about right on average I fail to see the link to 'simply because of VAT'.
If you are suggesting that any item is only really worth 17.5% less than it's vat paid price then I can see the logic but disagree that it's valid! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Ultimately it's worth what someone will pay for it and your net proceeds of the sale will take into account the costs of finding and marketting to that person plus running costs up untill the the sale completes - hence the disparity in what people think it's worth!
If you are suggesting that any item is only really worth 17.5% less than it's vat paid price then I can see the logic but disagree that it's valid! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Ultimately it's worth what someone will pay for it and your net proceeds of the sale will take into account the costs of finding and marketting to that person plus running costs up untill the the sale completes - hence the disparity in what people think it's worth!
MikeJ2
Well-Known Member
My old Corniche just had a clock on the dash that started ticking when the ignition was on to show engine hours...easily replaced or disconnected. My old Sealine S240 had a Volvo rev counter with digital engine hours meter that had to be replaced, and therefore was returned to zero. I didnt sell it after two years with 'just 90 hours', but could have done...
[2068]
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Okay, put another way.
Me, an individual boat purchaser, am never ever ever going to pay more than list price minus 17.5% for a used boat, because to me, that would be paying more than the manufacturer is selling it for. If there is some rarity value, supply problem, historic value or any other market reason to pay more, then others are welcome to pay the premium, but this shouldn't apply to the majority of Sealines/Fairlines etc. on the market today.
Main exceptions are as boats get larger (50ft plus): long delivery times mean that paying to jump the Q to get an well specced almost-new one can make sense.
Me, an individual boat purchaser, am never ever ever going to pay more than list price minus 17.5% for a used boat, because to me, that would be paying more than the manufacturer is selling it for. If there is some rarity value, supply problem, historic value or any other market reason to pay more, then others are welcome to pay the premium, but this shouldn't apply to the majority of Sealines/Fairlines etc. on the market today.
Main exceptions are as boats get larger (50ft plus): long delivery times mean that paying to jump the Q to get an well specced almost-new one can make sense.
DavidJ
Well-Known Member
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If there is some rarity value, supply problem, historic value or any other market reason to pay more, then others are welcome to pay the premium
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....and they get the boat and you don't......who's the winner?
If there is some rarity value, supply problem, historic value or any other market reason to pay more, then others are welcome to pay the premium
[/ QUOTE ]
....and they get the boat and you don't......who's the winner?
duncan
Well-Known Member
that's what I thought you were saying - and, as a private purchaser who pays vat on everything it's just a fact of life.
by your argument you would be looking for a 17.5% discount on everything you buy - new or old.
by your argument you would be looking for a 17.5% discount on everything you buy - new or old.
[2068]
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Winning, at a price.
Depends how you look at it. People that paid over the odds to get one of the first Audi TT's could have said to have "won" in that they got to drive an (initially) cool car that few others were driving. Then the price went down (affecting price of entire TT market), supply went up, now everyone has one. Are those first owners winners ? Sort of. They paid an inflated price for the privilege of owning that car at that time.
So long as people are aware WHY they are paying what they are paying, and how that value might change over time, there isn't a problem. In particular, getting no discount because it's the first year of production / supply problems / whatever is a situation I would wait out until something changed.
Older/rare/historic boats have their own market, but doesn't really apply to Sealine S28's, even the 1996 models...
Depends how you look at it. People that paid over the odds to get one of the first Audi TT's could have said to have "won" in that they got to drive an (initially) cool car that few others were driving. Then the price went down (affecting price of entire TT market), supply went up, now everyone has one. Are those first owners winners ? Sort of. They paid an inflated price for the privilege of owning that car at that time.
So long as people are aware WHY they are paying what they are paying, and how that value might change over time, there isn't a problem. In particular, getting no discount because it's the first year of production / supply problems / whatever is a situation I would wait out until something changed.
Older/rare/historic boats have their own market, but doesn't really apply to Sealine S28's, even the 1996 models...
[2068]
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No, it's just that I'm aware (as is the rest of the market) that buying a new Sealine S28 is actually a transaction in two parts: £97k total, of which £83k goes to Sealine, and £14k straight to Gordon Brown.
And the market price for a one year old S28 ? errm, about £83k.
Turning this around, can you name any VAT full-rated product which you can buy retail and then resell secondhand at more than the price without VAT ? Because if you can, then I think we might have the makings of a business.
It's a simple enough choice: new, virgin boat, pay the VAT or let someone else pay the vat for you and take the one year old one.
Despite it's name, Value Added Tax does not actually add any value.
And the market price for a one year old S28 ? errm, about £83k.
Turning this around, can you name any VAT full-rated product which you can buy retail and then resell secondhand at more than the price without VAT ? Because if you can, then I think we might have the makings of a business.
It's a simple enough choice: new, virgin boat, pay the VAT or let someone else pay the vat for you and take the one year old one.
Despite it's name, Value Added Tax does not actually add any value.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
If we take your argument to its logical conclusion, the true secondhand value of a boat should never exceed the original purchase price less all the taxes and duties paid (and not reclaimed) in the supply chain. How about deducting the fuel duty paid for the transport of all the components necessary to make the boat or the customs duty paid for those components originating outside the EU
This argument that the secondhand value should never exceed the original purchase price less VAT is v common but wrong, IMHO. The seconhand price is only a function of demand not the amount of tax and duty paid to GB. As it happens, 1-2 yr old boats do lose about 10-20% of their value compared to new but thats only as a result of buyers being unwilling to pay more than that for a used boat
The only situation where VAT might be a factor in market prices is where there are a lot of ex VAT boats of the same type on the market which might have the effect of dragging the value of VAT paid boats down
This argument that the secondhand value should never exceed the original purchase price less VAT is v common but wrong, IMHO. The seconhand price is only a function of demand not the amount of tax and duty paid to GB. As it happens, 1-2 yr old boats do lose about 10-20% of their value compared to new but thats only as a result of buyers being unwilling to pay more than that for a used boat
The only situation where VAT might be a factor in market prices is where there are a lot of ex VAT boats of the same type on the market which might have the effect of dragging the value of VAT paid boats down
[2068]
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The costs further down the supply chain are not in the price list. VAT is. The price list makes it very clear: £83k for the boat, £14k for Gordon Brown.
Look at this another way: Lets say that the EU and Gordon Brown authorise a change to the VAT rate because of some looming disaster, and the rate of VAT becomes 1%. The total purchase price is now £84k. Will the secondhand prices suddenly plummet by £13k because the VAT rate has changed ? I think not.
Look at this another way: Lets say that the EU and Gordon Brown authorise a change to the VAT rate because of some looming disaster, and the rate of VAT becomes 1%. The total purchase price is now £84k. Will the secondhand prices suddenly plummet by £13k because the VAT rate has changed ? I think not.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
When the total purchase price of new cars started to fall it affected the secondhand market. Of course it did.
If you're happy to pay more than you need to so you can have a premium opportunity of ownership for a few months, you need counselling.
If you're happy to pay more than you need to so you can have a premium opportunity of ownership for a few months, you need counselling.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Yes, I think they would. No one in their right mind is going to pay £83k for a secondhand S24 when they can get a new one for £84k. Would you?
ari
Well-Known Member
VAT content entirely irrelevent!
The whole VAT issue is irrelevent.
What it boils down to is, how much is a new one and how much is a second-hand one? And is the saving worth-while to take a used one.
Put in simple terms.
Imagine a boat is £1, but VAT is £99,999
Now, if you want a new one it's going to cost you £100,000
You can't say "well £99,999 is VAT so will only pay £1" (well you could, but you wouldn't get the boat) cos someone else will say "£100,000 for new, or year old one for £80,000, well to me it's worth taking the year old one and saving £20,000".
Turn it the other way up, new boat £99,999 and VAT £1 (I wish!). No one is going to pay £99,999 for year old one cos for another £1 they can have a new one.
So they might say "I'll pay £80,000 for the year old one, cos a £20,000 saving makes it worth having a second-hand boat".
Either way, the actual VAT content is irrelevent. all that matters is cost new, cost second-hand. If the saving makes it worth buying used then fair enough. How that breaks down as proportions of what bits were boat and what bits were VAT is irrelevent.
All anyone is interested in is how much they save going used. Same with cars, same with anything second-hand.
The whole VAT issue is irrelevent.
What it boils down to is, how much is a new one and how much is a second-hand one? And is the saving worth-while to take a used one.
Put in simple terms.
Imagine a boat is £1, but VAT is £99,999
Now, if you want a new one it's going to cost you £100,000
You can't say "well £99,999 is VAT so will only pay £1" (well you could, but you wouldn't get the boat) cos someone else will say "£100,000 for new, or year old one for £80,000, well to me it's worth taking the year old one and saving £20,000".
Turn it the other way up, new boat £99,999 and VAT £1 (I wish!). No one is going to pay £99,999 for year old one cos for another £1 they can have a new one.
So they might say "I'll pay £80,000 for the year old one, cos a £20,000 saving makes it worth having a second-hand boat".
Either way, the actual VAT content is irrelevent. all that matters is cost new, cost second-hand. If the saving makes it worth buying used then fair enough. How that breaks down as proportions of what bits were boat and what bits were VAT is irrelevent.
All anyone is interested in is how much they save going used. Same with cars, same with anything second-hand.
Callisto
Well-Known Member
Have to agree HLB
I did the same before I got Callisto and some of the cr*p I looked at which was advertised as tip top order totally astounded me.
Have to say anyone who seriously wants to sell should get around the boat with the polish, make sure she is all up and together and looking good before any buyer arrives.
There is no excuse at all for poor maintenance either, that should be high on any owners priority list.
Its exactly the same as houses IMHO as (present company excepted of course) many people can't see through the grime etc to the boat underneath. They are not just looking to buy a boat, they are looking at buying a lifestyle. If they can't "see" themselves in your boat, you ain't going to sell it to them!
Does have its advantages for those of us who can see through it though cos we get good deals...........long may it continue /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
JH
I did the same before I got Callisto and some of the cr*p I looked at which was advertised as tip top order totally astounded me.
Have to say anyone who seriously wants to sell should get around the boat with the polish, make sure she is all up and together and looking good before any buyer arrives.
There is no excuse at all for poor maintenance either, that should be high on any owners priority list.
Its exactly the same as houses IMHO as (present company excepted of course) many people can't see through the grime etc to the boat underneath. They are not just looking to buy a boat, they are looking at buying a lifestyle. If they can't "see" themselves in your boat, you ain't going to sell it to them!
Does have its advantages for those of us who can see through it though cos we get good deals...........long may it continue /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
JH
[2068]
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Still not convinced, although I don't get the impression that I'm winning this one.
VAT is a tax that everyone knows about. It's in the price list, it's a one-off tax that only applies to the first purchaser. Having paid that tax, why would anyone value the boat at anything more than purchase price less than that tax ?
Stamp duty doesn't increase the value of your home or your shares.
VAT is a tax that everyone knows about. It's in the price list, it's a one-off tax that only applies to the first purchaser. Having paid that tax, why would anyone value the boat at anything more than purchase price less than that tax ?
Stamp duty doesn't increase the value of your home or your shares.
ari
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
VAT is a tax that everyone knows about. It's in the price list, it's a one-off tax that only applies to the first purchaser. Having paid that tax, why would anyone value the boat at anything more than purchase price less than that tax ?
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Cos you can't buy it without.
Only relevent figure is what you'd have to pay new versus what you will pay for a used one.
Basically, the saving you make buying used has to be enough to justify not buying new. How that new cost is made up is irrelevent, you have to pay it regardless.
Put it another way, in exceptional circs where someone is prepared to pay list price for a slightly second-hand car to avoid a waiting list (like an Aston DB9 for example), you don't suppose when they hand the money over they deduct the VAT cos that was a "one off payment at new" do you?
If they're prepared to pay new price for used to beat the queue then new price of the cost of car new, not cost of car less the government bits...
VAT is a tax that everyone knows about. It's in the price list, it's a one-off tax that only applies to the first purchaser. Having paid that tax, why would anyone value the boat at anything more than purchase price less than that tax ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Cos you can't buy it without.
Only relevent figure is what you'd have to pay new versus what you will pay for a used one.
Basically, the saving you make buying used has to be enough to justify not buying new. How that new cost is made up is irrelevent, you have to pay it regardless.
Put it another way, in exceptional circs where someone is prepared to pay list price for a slightly second-hand car to avoid a waiting list (like an Aston DB9 for example), you don't suppose when they hand the money over they deduct the VAT cos that was a "one off payment at new" do you?
If they're prepared to pay new price for used to beat the queue then new price of the cost of car new, not cost of car less the government bits...
