Buying a Motorsailor, dreamers with old engines.

Davy_S

Davy_S

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I have been having a bit of a catch up pricewise on the perceived value of old motorsailers. It could be me that is out of touch but, I do think that someone offering a 30 ish year old boat with an original engine the same age, is having a bit of a laugh.Now a 4107 or 4108 was a good engine in its day but time has moved on. Of course a fully rebuilt one may be ok but, we are still dealing with primitive technology. If the boat itself was in good nick or a fair bit of DIY would put it right (provided you enjoyed this) what do you think a fair price to knock off would be if you bought and fitted another engine? to me a good engine is a must on a Motorsailer. I would have thought cost wise around 7/8 grand for a 40 hp plus bits, ie, 40 hp Nanni 40hp Petter alpha etc was reasonable, or am I asking/expecting too much of a bargain?
 
Davy_S said:
I do think that someone offering a 30 ish year old boat with an original engine the same age, is having a bit of a laugh.
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You think they're having a laugh regardless of the asking price? Surely that's the important thing. If the price it's offered at takes into account the age of the engine, then no problem. You can't expect to automatically subtract the price of a new engine from any boat offered for sale at any price.

Pete
 
For what it is worth, some thoughts:

I own a 30 year "motorsailer" (Nauticat 43) with a 30 year old engine. I understand your argument, but I don't think it is so cut and dried. The purchase price will reflect the condition of the boat as a whole (engine included). However for me, what I wanted was original, as my experience with "improvements" by previous owners is that they are usually rubbish and all has to be pulled out. If the engine is low hours and well maintained, why change it? Modern engines are certainly more economical, but usually all computer controlled and turbo charged and high revving, the characteristics of which may not suit a 30 year old heavier displacement motor sailer.

For instance in my boat, I have a Ford 2722 4.5 litre 4 cylinder normally aspirated engine: 1500 rpm gives me 7.5 knots. Many owners have changed them for Yanmars and the like but the newer engines are much lighter and ballast has to be added under the aft cabin floor to compensate. Also all the engine bearers, gearbox, prop and often shaft have to be changed. PBO did an interesting article about re-engining and what struck me was that the final bill was something like double the cost of the engine alone, and the owner did a fair amount of work himself. I have changed my view to having the engine rebuilt (this is quite common with these Fords) when required at about half of the cost of a new engine alone.

So, look for a decent engine with plenty of spares availability, get a condition report and make up your mind what you think the whole package is worth. IMHO spend your time looking carefully at the condition and life span of any teak decks: that is the real ticking time bomb..

P
 
Engines don't really go off in the same way milk does so generally age is less relevant. If it starts, has good compression and looks tidy then where is the issue as long as spares are available?
 
Tend to agree with previous posts, as long as the old engine has been serviced, starts, runs and it is of a make that spares can be bought for where is the problem. If I was buying a boat with a 30yr old engine I would treat it to a good service:

Injectors, hoses, thermostat, water pump, clean heat exchanger, service starter, adjust valves, check head bolts, check all electrical connections, check mounts and shaft coupling and then just oils etc.

With a big does of personal prejudice I would rather have an old mechanical low revving engine than a 10yr old high revving turbod job perhaps with common rail injection but not sure how long that has been around.

happy hunting.
 
lustyd said:
Engines don't really go off in the same way milk does so generally age is less relevant. If it starts, has good compression and looks tidy then where is the issue as long as spares are available?
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Plus the fact if you are mechanically minded you can fault find and repair without the need for plug in computer analysis.
 
There's nothing wrong with an engine being 30, 40 or 60 years old, mistreat an engine and it's crappy no matter what age. Large slow revving engines are less stressed than modern high revving ones. But they don't have to be hugely expensive to replace, our Thornycroft can be replaced like for like with an as-new Thorny for £2,500 if the gearbox is OK or £4,500 if not plus about £900 labour.
 
stav said:
Tend to agree with previous posts, as long as the old engine has been serviced, starts, runs and it is of a make that spares can be bought for where is the problem. If I was buying a boat with a 30yr old engine I would treat it to a good service:

Injectors, hoses, thermostat, water pump, clean heat exchanger, service starter, adjust valves, check head bolts, check all electrical connections, check mounts and shaft coupling and then just oils etc.

With a big does of personal prejudice I would rather have an old mechanical low revving engine than a 10yr old high revving turbod job perhaps with common rail injection but not sure how long that has been around.

happy hunting.
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I have just done that; having bought an LM with a 30 year old Bukh. I normally do my own servicing but decided to had a professional give it the going over, explaining as he went. All it needed were new water pump seals.

He could not fault it and she is running as sweet as a nut.
 
We have in the Ionian a motorsailor (SSR 0007) with a BMC 1.5 engine number 147 with parts easily available and can assure you it gets more reliable year by year. A lot older than you are talking about.!!!
 
Examples of old engines that will, if serviced and used properly, probably outlast a new shiny replacement are the German-diesel-taxi Mercedes OMs, Norwegian fisherman start-in-March-and-turn-off-in-October Sabbs, plus lots of other pretty primitive marinised van engines. And try to tell anyone with an old Gardner that they'd be better off with a new engine......
 
My Colvic Northerner motorsailer was built in 1973, possibly with the engine it has now. It's a BMC 2.5 litre diesel, as fitted in many canal boats and taxis. It runs very well, starts first time and seems reasonably quiet. I have not run it enough to know the oil consumption but it doesn't smoke. All the signs are it will go on for years with only routine maintenance.
 
jwilson said:
Examples of old engines that will, if serviced and used properly, probably outlast a new shiny replacement are the German-diesel-taxi Mercedes OMs, Norwegian fisherman start-in-March-and-turn-off-in-October Sabbs, plus lots of other pretty primitive marinised van engines. And try to tell anyone with an old Gardner that they'd be better off with a new engine......
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I read about a refrigeration company who rebuild there om636's at between 40000 and 50000 hours and not a typo but I think they are running 24/7.
 
Thank you for all the replies! you have given me something to think about, if anything, I have been given a little more confidence in an old engine. I am a hands on person and have always repaired and serviced my own cars, bikes and boat engines. I hope I have not offended any owners of old engines, it was not my intention, I managed to keep my aging Volvo MD6A going until it rusted through. I am now flailing my back with a rusty old toilet chain, I repent!:)
 
Davy_S said:
Of course a fully rebuilt one may be ok but, we are still dealing with primitive technology.
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If you think a 30 year old engine is "primitive" ( a bit of an overstatement?) why dont you think the same of the hull design? Or the rig? And certainly of things like the interior fittings. In reality the engine is more easily brought up to scratch than the rest of the boat. Often they are truck engines and there are lots of truck engine repairers and refurb guys who can get it back to almost new condition at a sensible cost - try doing that with the woodwork, the toilet etc

For some reason posters seem to think of an old boat as a hull with an engine and forget that everything else ages as well, some of it very difficult indeed to update.
 
The only question I had in my mind was what technological advances are there in a Kubota engine (Beta, Nanni etc) over the Perkins etc 'truck engines'? Although the Kubota might be slightly higher revving they are all normally aspirated diesels with traditional injection pumps. I haven't heard of any of the modern smaller boat engines having fancy electronically common rail injection systems...

You get all new ancillaries with a new engine, but those are the easy bits to renew or fix.
 
I have a 1978 MS with a 4108. I could have had the engine replaced under an insurance claim but chose not to - I can get reasonably priced spares easily and it's owner-fixable.
The cost of yanmar spares frightened me off. Also the 4108 runs fine underwater, mine thinks it's fitted in a Landrover!
 
It is not just Yanmar but any of these far eastern derived engines. A friend had a small two pot Vetus and the head gasket went and she was quoted £700 by a marina, rubbish says I but I soon discovered that the gasket set alone was £350 which is utter madness and no I could not get one from a plant firm. I have got a 4D and it does me.
 
Billjratt said:
I have a 1978 MS with a 4108. I could have had the engine replaced under an insurance claim but chose not to - I can get reasonably priced spares easily and it's owner-fixable.
The cost of yanmar spares frightened me off. Also the 4108 runs fine underwater, mine thinks it's fitted in a Landrover!
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The 4108 was a fine engine and its simplicity and spares availability still make it a fine engine today. Owner fixable is not to be under rated!!
 
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