Buying a Boat: VAT not paid

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Not that I'm thinking about buying another boat. Yet.

But if I want to buy a boat that hasn't had VAT paid on it for whatever reason, how does this work?

Is is calculated on the original purchase price (ouch, surely not) or the second hand transaction price?

If it's the second hand transaction price, whats's to stop you putting a transaction price through of £100 and giving the owner's daughter a gift of £149,900?

Just trying to figure out how this is meant to work...

dv.
 
[ QUOTE ]
the second hand transaction price?


[/ QUOTE ] Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
whats's to stop you putting a transaction price through of £100 and giving the owner's daughter a gift of £149,900?

[/ QUOTE ] I beleive......Nothing, apart from I guess it would be the more you "take the piss" the more likely they are to catch you, as they probably do know that An 40' XYZ Turbo Sedan is worth more than £25. The biggest problem with any crime (and the last I heard VAT fraud was a crime) is any "Partner" you have - if the Seller is willing to go along with this fraud then it will be probably be because he is someone who "sails close to the edge" at the very least and odds are that they WILL be only to happy to disclose this transaction and drop you in it if he ever thought it would help him.

However, IMO the good thing about buying Ex-Vat and then paying the VAT is that you get 100% cast iron proof of VAT paid status........helpful when / if confronted by Johnny Foreigner Customs and also when you sell (when the opposition only has (or has not?!) a VAT invoice (that COULD have been easily forged /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
 
Customs & Excise are not stupid. They know what boats are worth as they can look in the classified ads just like you. The best you can do is get an invoice for an amount at the low end of the market range and hope they accept it. To mitigate VAT further you could keep the boat for a few months in a VAT free area and then import it and agree some depreciation on its invoice value
The other alternative is to pay the VAT in Spain if the boat is located there. The Spanish authorities use valuation tables and their VAT rate is 16% but, again, they're not exactly stupid either and you'll pay what they deem a fair sum
 
Ta. Can I just confirm that I'm not suggesting any kind of VAT fraud: I was just asking what the normal process is, and what the checks & balances are.

Obviously turning up in a French port in a Sealine S38 with a VAT invoice showing £17.50 paid isn't going to get you very far, but I like the sound of the "lower end of the market" valuation, which could be justified with some pre-purchase photos showing some soot on the stern, a bit of belt dust, and a cupful of oil poured into the bilge.

dv.
 
One of the major concenes when I bought my last boat. After much research and obtaining past certificates I thought all should be in order. However, to be safe, I insisted that my final receipt from the broker be annotated and signed by them that all UK VAT due had been paid. They were reluctant at first but eventualy agreed. Therefore, if there should there be a problem in the future, it is not mine.
 
um ,i think you wll find ot probably *Is* your problem, a bit?!

Otherwise less scrupulous and strangely disappearing people or companies could sell boats and write invoices saying "yes yes, the vat is paid, honest". The vatman surely won't agree to your idea that he goes and finds the rogue living in flat 3 sandy lane barbados either. It will be you who has to pay the vat. Cos of course (if unpiad) you wouldn't have paid it. Yep the other guy hasn't paid it either but that's another story.

That said, i have never ever ever been askd for a vat invoice for the boat, despite being asked for loads and loads of bit of paper by lots of officials.
 
Ownership details going back for 25 years, details of berthing in VVW marina Nieupoort on the required dates and original invoices from UK build and Holland sales. I think NYA are on fairly safe ground saying the boat was VAT paid. Unless you consider NYA a fly by night firm?

And yes it does happen. I have been asked for my boats papers (previous boat) in Belgium in 2000 and in France in 2003.
 
ok, tho the point i was making was that i believe the onus is upon the current owner to pay any unpaid vat imho. Regardless of what s/he was told by previous owners.

Boats papers don't necessarily include a vat invoice, tho that is a speret issue...
 
You miss the point, which the RYA has been driving at for a long time.
There is no specifific cetificate that says 'VAT Paid'.
I have 17 pieces of A4 paper that collectivly, when scrutinized by some one who understands English, show that VAT is paid on my boat.
I also have a sales certificate, one bit of paper, that says all UK VAT due paid.
Which is more use?
 
[ QUOTE ]

There is no specifific cetificate that says 'VAT Paid'.


[/ QUOTE ]

Take all the papers to the Customs & Excise. If VAT has been paid they will give you a nicely stamped Certificate saying "VAT PAID".
 
My understanding of Spanish VAT is that they are fairly flexible on second-hand price and the boat does not have to be in Spain. They like making the money.

As I said somewhere else, my last but one boat was British built, bought by a Dutchman via the Channel Islands, British registered, kept in France and VAT paid in Spain. Before I bought it, it had never been to Spain.

A small number of years ago, I was interested in buying a new boat from a well-known British manufacturer. They offered to base the boat in the Channel Islands, rent it to me for 6 months, then deduct the rental from the selling price and VAT would be payable on the remainder.
 
I don't know what the comparative VAT rates are around Europe, but we bought our previous boat in Denmark where it was also at 15%. It's a very useful saving and paid for the boat to be transported back to the UK.
I suggest you investigate what other EU nations would charge.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Take all the papers to the Customs & Excise. If VAT has been paid they will give you a nicely stamped Certificate saying "VAT PAID".

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know they still did this?

The old man got a bit of paper from UK customs confirming the boat was VAT paid when he bought her 10 years ago - the downside was that he had to take the boat to the UK to do the sale.

[ QUOTE ]
There is no specifific cetificate that says 'VAT Paid'.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you pay the VAT then you <u>do</u> get a receipt from HM Customs (or whatever they are now called!) - and in my book this is as good as it gets, cos not only will it be a receipt from those whose job it is to collect the VAT, but should also be verifiable as to wheter ot is genuine (although I stand to be corrected on this).
 
A few years ago I bought a second hand boat in the US and sailed her home. On arrival in Weymouth I contacted the Customs to sort out VAT and found them extremely helpful. They calculated VAT on the price I paid, minus the cost of the bits that had broken since I presented the boat, ie depreciation since purchase. There was quite a lot of this (including a new engine). It made a significant difference to what we had to pay in VAT and it brightened my view of the Vatman enormously.
John
 
Hi

Bought a used yacht last year with no paperwork at all. No evidence of VAT being paid so my offer to the broker was accepted by the owner but less 17.5%. I paid the VAT direct and a few weeks later I received a stamped certificate showing the VAT had been paid.

David
 
No, i didn't miss the point. No big beef, but not only is there no such document saying "yes the vat has definitely been fullypaid on this boat" but (under the way in which uk vat works) - there cannot be a valid piece of paper saying VAT paid in uk and any such stamp is worthless, as below.

Say someone buy a boat, and pays he vat. Nips over to vat office toget a stamp saying "vat paid". Hurrah. But then, they get the boat coded and start doing a bit of charter work, get some contracts etc. They can then apply for vat refund and they'll get it too. In fact, this is precisely what happens to all boats chartering in uk - the vatisn't exempt - the mechanism that you pay it, and *then* you reclaim it.

This cannot hapen in france frinstance - there is no mechanism for reclaiming the vat. It is either vatpaid ornot vat paid tostart. So a vat invoice proves vat has ben paid in france,and it proves the same in the uk. But in uk it could have been reclaimed later - after getting a vat paid stamp too.

There's no register of which boats have and haven't had vat reclaimed, all buried in various vat offices, so all probly fine imho.
 
This having to prove that VAT has been paid on UK yachts in other EU countries confuses me.

If you take your car to France for a visit do you have to prove that VAT has been paid on the car in the UK. If you re register your car in say France or Spain do you have to pay VAT /Duty as being part of EU.

When I came to South Africa I did not pay any duty / Sales Tax /VAT and my personal items and the would include a car or yacht providing I cound prove ownership for at least 6 months.

If you register a yacht in the UK new or imported dont you have to pay VAT before it can be registered ?

If I sail my South African yacht into an other African country which is part of the SACU or OZ or NZ, I dont have to prove VAT paid but if I register it or keep it for more the 6 months to a year , depending on country, I have to pay VAT and any import duties.

Or could this just be yet another form of goverment extorsion ?
 
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