Buying a boat in Turkey - marmaris

[gavinharris]

Greetings from 'down under'.
I am planning an adventure with my family. Starting in the UK October 07 then flying to Turkey Marmaris late Feb 08. - to purchase a cruising motorboat. Cruise the Med back to UK via French canals.
Couple of question to you well traveled lot.
I have viewed a lot of cruisers branded 'Tuzla'. Does anyone have any general info on this boat builder? History magazine article links etc.
I will need to sell boat back in UK - so am wary of buying something unknown and difficult to re-sell. I am not looking to make a quick buck just re-sell easily.
Feel free to offer any advice on boat types/builders
Basic Boat requirements:
Semi-displacement or displacement
35 - 40 ft
Flybridge - max 3.5 air-draft.
Pref. main aft cabin (min 4 berth)
Age/hull type not important - condition will be.

If anyone has the time or inclination I would be appreciative of further communication - even offline.
Regards Gavin H

 

[chrisarcher]

Hi Gavin,
Prior to puchasing a Greek vessel, I spent several weeks looking at boats in Turkey - so the following message is my personal opinion based purly on my own experience of searching for a Turkish built vessel, others may have had a better/different experience!!

There are quite a few well known boat builders in the Bodrum and Marmaris regions but there are many more backyard builders - often quite a way inland - where boats are built in back gardens by families. BEWARE!!! because of this build quality varies considerably and some I have seen are very suspect to say the least. I think that the name that you mentioned, 'Tuzla' , refers to a region near Bodrum where boats are built, as opposed to an actual builder.
Turkish safety regulations are not up to much so if you intend to re-sell in Europe then you should satisfy yourself the the boat will pass the European boat safety certificates without you having to spend huge amounts of money. Not all had any nav aids, epirb, life rafts, dsc radio. All factors to consider when looking at the price. Some of my other findings;
Engines tend to get re used, or are marinised versions of truck engines. Not many had service history or running hours logged - especially anything owned by a charter company. ( many vessels I looked at turned out to be ex -charter, even if they said they were private!!)
Never buy a boat without a full survey by someone who really knows the score in Turkey - there are a few good ones in Marmaris and Bodrum.( british ex-pats, RYA acreditted) At least you should be able to haggle with the owner over the price, I saw a boat advertised at 250,000 euro sell for 100,000!! whilst I was there.
Although most prices are advertised in Euros these days, most agents will take U.S Dollars, so depending on the exchange rates you might get a better deal by switching curencies.

I do not want to paint too bad a picture for you, but my experience was that some advertising decriptions were bare faced lies, pictures used to advertise boats were sometimes many years old and prices for the same boats varied between brokers. Generally I was treated like a dumb tourist who was ripe for being ripped off.
Don't forget about the V.A.T situation when you come to sell in Europe. You can get a temporary importation chitty to use it in Europe but as vat has not been paid this will affect resale value.
Having said all that there are some nice vessels there, well built, full safety equipment and nav aids. In my experience you will need to view a lot of boats to find a good one.

I wish you the best of luck, I am sure that if you keep your wits about you and take specialist advice you will find the boat of your dreams!! I did, but in the end I had to go to Greece to find something of the quality I wanted and a price I was able to pay.

Kind regards, Chris

 

[chrisarcher]

Further to my last reply;

Having had the time to read your other posts I can see what your basic idea is, plus the type of vessel you are after. Have you considered the registration factors? I am pretty certain the Turkish authorities will want you to re flag the vessel before leaving Turkey, so factor that cost in as well. If you go with an 'off shore' vat free registration that would save costs of paying vat but still leaves you with the tempoary imporation paperwork plus the vat issue when you come to sell it. ( not sure if you can sell it without paying vat first - I stand to be corrected on that one!)
I have seen some nice laminate constrction vessels in Istanbul, they were described as 'Black Sea' design, these may be closer to your design /construction requirements.
The fact theat you don't see Turkish built vessels for sale in the UK should ring alarm bells for you. It is my belief that beacause of the reasons laid out in my previous post, most would not be of a saleable quality in the UK. (again I stand to be corrected.!)
To be honest if I was in your position I would look at what boats types, construction materials etc are popular, in the size you require, in the UK and try and find one for sale in the Med.
If your heart is set on a Turkish built vessel have you considered a 'round robin' trip? Purchase in Turkey, take your time and sail up through to the UK and then take a quicker journey back to Turkey?? Might be the answer if you intend to re sell after your trip.

Finally if you find yourself looking in Greece for a suitable boat in the early part of 2008, you are most welcome to use our home in Greece (currently moored in Piraeus) as a base whilst you search.

Regards, Chris

 

[gavinharris]

Hi Chris.

Thank you for your reply.

I am not set on buying a Turkish boat as much as using Marmaris for a base. It seems to have a good stock of boats around the various brokers. My preference is to use a broker to ensure transaction goes legitimately. I will have to rely on my instincts to weed out the sharks.
There have been some other good stories on the forum re. specific brokers in Turkey so I have a starting point.
I have a recommended surveyor by friends - who actually purchased in Greece. I believe he is a UK ex-pat. Very professional and thorough as anyone they had used before
Re 'Tuzla' boats - I had a feeling about these boats – brokers have not been forthcoming with any real detail requested. They have the real potential to be dodgy - thanks for the heads up.
Re. Vat and registration, we are working our way through that murky tax system and have allowed for this in budget.
Which country we register our boat in is one we haven’t worked out completely. Some advice is that the flag/registration of boat and the boat owners - are better to be from same country. So we may register as a NZ flag boat. Still some homework on that one.

We have decided on a 6-7 month cruise time frame. Start @ end Feb – May thru the Med. June – Sept /French canals. Kids may have had enough of Captain Bligh by then. Wintering boat somewhere and doing it all again is something I haven’t seriously considered - until now!

Re. Greece. I have viewed a couple of boats in Greece via Greg-Yachts based in Athens. Greece is definitely an option for a boat and prices seem competitive with Turkey. Not a bad place to start cruise from either.

Your offer of accommodation is very generous and I may take you up!

Thanks again for advice and tips.

Best regards Gavin H

 

[chrisarcher]

Hi Gavin,
February is certainly a good time to view and buy boats, the buying season tends to start in earnest in November so by February owners who are keen to sell should be open to offers!! Also it would be a good idea to clear through the Med by June as you should stay clear of the summer crowds - and summer prices!!! Weather can be a bit changeable at times during the spring, but as you are not on too tight a schedule that shouldn't be a problem for you.

As for prices, Turkey used to be realitively cheap but in last few years they have increased significantly, so by the time you add taxes, fitting of equipment & updates plus other fees, buying in Europe may not turn out to be any more expensive.

Keep in touch via the contact details on my web site and we would be happy to see you should you wish to continue your search in Greece.

Regards, Chris & Elaine

 

[upcountry2]

What a nice man Chris is, warms the cockles of my heart it does...

 

[Marsupial]

Hi, I am willing to believe that there are good Turkish builders and I don’t want to teach you egg sucking, but I do have some experience of doing business in Turkey.

Firstly, they take the view that if you are stupid enough to agree to an outrageous price it is their duty to relieve you of your money - as obviously you cannot be trusted with it.

Advertised prices are incredibly inflated a factor of 10 is not unusual, try to remember that an educated skilled Turk earns around 800YTL a month. (FX 2.5YTL = £1.00). You can hire skilled labour for about 20YTL a day (£8.00).

Its not unusual for the prices of things to change during a conversation, it will go from old Lira (Millions), to Euros, to Pounds to New Lira to dollars - sometimes in the same sentence!

"50,000?", "Oh yes sir 50,000 lira", "Lira?", "no sir I said euros, but I meant 70,000 pounds" “But that’s 175,000 lira” “yes that’s right 175,000 euros” and so on.

I gauge it like this, when I eat out in Turkey I spend 2 or 3 YTL (£1.00) for a meal most brits pay £30.00 for, but then I eat where the locals eat.

Most of the boats I have seen out there are beautifully made - from softwood. I have been on a 60ft gullet in a gale (F8) the waves must have been at least 4ft high (ie tiny), the boat did not feel stable and the crew were decidedly anxious, thanks for the ride guys but no thanks, I prefer my Jeanneau.

You need to have contracts notarised, it is a legal document and the last chance you have to get it right, and there is no going back once the stamp falls on it. If you drop out of a deal, you will loose your deposit, and you may have to pay other compensations.

Finally; You need a Turkish speaking English broker/surveyor/solicitor, NOT an English speaking Turkish one!

Good Luck.

 

[LadyJessie]

Please ignore this last posting. It is obviously from someone with an uninformed and very biased view of the Turks. I know Turkey to be a nation of very honest and open merchants. I have now lived in the eastern Med for four years and my experience is that I would much rather do business with my Turkish friends than the British expats around here. You can easily trust the Turks, unfortunately that is not possible with most of the western Europeans that try to do business around here. Lots of sharks. Beware!

 

[Marsupial]

I have a house in Turkey; so my years of successful dealing in Mugla don’t count then.

If I didn’t like, but more importantly understand the place why would I choose to invest in it?

I‘ve lost count of the number of Brits I have tried to help from weasel deals; I am only trying to pass on some hard won experience.

The Turks aren’t all bad but some are, just as the Brits there are good and bad, the problem for novice Brits is spotting who’s who. I have some great Turkish friends that I trust implicitly and they have for the most part guided me to my preset wisdom.

The transcript of the conversation is not hearsay its real and repeatable in almost every estate agency in turkey try it!

and finally "unfortunately that is not possible with most of the western Europeans that try to do business around here"

ANY western European doing business in Turkey is probably operating illegally, so yes you need to be on the lookout for them as well.

Ladyjessy, its a shame you have chosen to post on a subject you know nothing about, remember there are two sides to every nation, so far you have only found the "good side", I wish you fair winds and that you never find the "bad side".

 

[Norman_E]

There is two issues you need to understand. You will not be able to re-sell a Turkish built boat anywhere in the EU. The reason is that the EU has set up a protectionist measure (craftily disguised as a safety issue) whereby all pleasure craft need to have an RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) classification before they can legally be sold either new or second hand. It will cost plenty to obtain a classification if you do want to sell. In addition, whilst you may visit the EU in a Turkish built boat, VAT will become payable if you import it. I am not sure here how long you can "visit" for, but certainly VAT will be payable if you sell it in the EU. You might be much better advised to look for a VAT paid and RCD classified boat in Greece or elsewhere within the EU.

As to the various comments made about Turkey, I bought and keep my yacht there, and visit the country a lot. The Turks are generally a very friendly people, and the vast majority are honest. Given the relatively low pay in the country it is not surprising that tourists pay a bit more than the locals for some things, and if that makes Turkey more prosperous, that is a good thing.

 

[gavinharris]

Hi again.
Thank you for your replies. As we all know – each individuals experiences, personality and ‘style’ varies dramatically. If everyone was the same what a boring place it would be!
- Chris and Elaine - Looking at your site now – very professional site and easy to use.
- Thanks Norman_E for heads up re. RCD. I will stay clear of non registered boats. Have budgeted for paying VAT.

If anyone feels they have further advice - not already mentioned - please add!

Regards Gavin

One thing we learn from history - is that we learn nothing from history.

 

[demonboy]

You may also want to contact Mark of Bodrum Marine Services . He surveyed our boat (GRP ketch) and has become a great friend, helping us find our feet in Turkey. He is the only fully qualified (by UK standards I think) surveyor east of Italy. On top of this he has a team of people who project manage new-builds and refits, one of whom is a Turk (Akan), who specialises in dealing with Turkish-built boats. Akan's English is excellent.

Although he is based in Bodrum Mark spends most of his time in Marmaris. I seriously recommend him as your first point of contact. At the very least for the price of a couple of beers you could pick his brains because he really knows his stuff. Tell him Jamie sent you /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[MASH]

I second that opinion. Mark is excellent.

My input for a good broker is Sunbird. You won't find better anywhere.

 

[ITH]

Second what Demon Boy and MASH have to say: Mark Wiater at Bodrum Marine is 1st class, and Peter Casalis de Pury at Sunbird (in Marmaris) will give good advice and help.

Although we didn't end up buying a boat from Marmaris (so Caveat Emptor applies), the following people were helpful when we were trolling through possibilities: Hassa Ozmil 'hasan@abpolaris.com', Nihan Deniz 'brokerage@aegeanyacht.com', Halil Furat of Zephyria Yachting 'zephyria@superonline.com', and Adnan Gul 'gpsyachting@superonline.com

 

[jintysailing]

Hello from Fethiye. Ive just seen a motor cruiser for sale lying in Fethiye marina. Its a 32ft Bayliner. I have sat on that very boat in Clyde Marina in Scotland and is now for sale in Turkey with Sunbird yacht brokers for £35,000. It might be worth a phone call or check their website for details. It will obviously be up to safety standards, have no VAT implications and it might even be happy to go back to the British Isles. Thought this might help in your adventure. Sunbird phone number is 00441294607078 or email david.robertson@superonline.com from Sunbird offices Turkey.
Good luck and happy crusing.