Buying a boat in the UK

[chrismckesson]

Greetings!

I am an American, currently living aboard and cruising my Columbia 36 in the waters of Puget Sound on the Pacific coast of the USA.

I would like to sail in the UK, wander the swatchways, for reason the Stour appeals to me... And to this end I have thought of coming to the UK next spring (2008), buying a small something, spending a nine months or a year, and then selling the boat and going home.

I would be interested in a boat that needs work, so that via 'elbow grease' I could minimize my total net cost. My boat budget is only about EUR 10.000. A quick look on Yachtworld.com reveals that this isn't an impossible idea.

I am attracted to boats ranging from 'big little boats' like a Westerly Centaur or an Albin Vega, to more classic carft like a Folkboat. Unfortunately a true Folkboat is probably too small for two people to live aboard, so I would need to find something "folkboat-like" but 28 feet or so.

Well, I could go on at length, but this is enough for an introduction. I solicit your comments - on the whole range of my topic.

Here's one specific detail to get the conversation going: Some adverts say "tax paid" whilst some say "tax not paid." What is this tax of which they speak?

Thanks - bring on the opinions: I know sailors have plenty of those!

Chris McKesson

 

[Bajansailor]

Just a thought - you could perhaps consider the possibility of doing a temporary swop of boats for the summer - there might be sailing folk in England who would love to spend a summer (or even just a month or 2) cruising around Puget Sound, but are perhaps put off by the prospect of having to charter a vessel - while still having to worry about upkeep and maintenance on the boat they left behind at home.

 

[chrismckesson]

Re: Boat Swop: Yes, we discussed that idea and it is a very close contender. The only downside is that I actually greatly enjoy working on old boats, and I'd obviously not do that in a swop. The upside is that I might get the use a much larger boat than I could afford to buy-and-sell.

Are there boat swop websites or listings that you know of? Do folks, in fact, swop boats? How do they network to this end?

The other drawback is that my boat is somewhat unique, and would not appeal to the "all mod cons" sailor....mostly because she has electric drive, no diesel, and this means you mostly sail rather than motoring. But definitely an idea worth considering.

But also please let me know about the "buy/sell" idea.

Thanks!

Chris

 

[jonjo]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's one specific detail to get the conversation going: Some adverts say "tax paid" whilst some say "tax not paid." What is this tax of which they speak?

[/ QUOTE ]
It is a general sales tax known as VAT (value added tax) and the current rate is 17.5%.

The tax was introduced on private yacht sales about 20 years ago, so given your budget and age of boat you will be considering it is possible the initial ownership would have predated the tax and so it will not be relavent to your purchase.

The tax-paid/not-paid tag is often dropped in adverts for older boats because there will be a working assumption that after 15 to 25 years of private ownership tax is considered paid or not applicable. Boats for sale coming out of charter fleets can be subject to the tax or the tax might be reclaimable by a second commercial owner.

Bewarned the British do not rationally discount the value of old (+20 year) leisure boats to factor in renovation costs, so you are not likely to be able to add so much value to your purchase though hard work.

 

[tillergirl]

The tax is VAT or value-added tax. Generally speaking if you are buying a second-hand boat in the UK, vat payable on initial purchase will have been paid. There is no tax payable again. Where it becomes an issue is if the boat was originally exported outside of the EU and VAT was therefore saved. On reimport to the EU, VAT at the current value is payable. There is a further issue that if you travel from say the UK to France, or another EU country they can ask for evidence that VAT has been paid -so having the original receipt is an issue when buying a second-hand boat. Unless you get something which was build and originally sold before VAT was created. Then you have to be able to prove the boat was in the UK at a certain date - which I can't remember. You will find the East Coast a good base. Whilst the Stour has its attractions it is within a day's sail of the Ore, Deben (beautiful), Orwell (beautiful), The Backwaters (v nice), The Colne (all right but small and v tidal, Blackwater (super), Crouch (ok, nice in upper reachs) and Roach and of course the Kent Rivers and somewhere called the Thames. For reading and pilotage get the East Coast Pilot by Imray or East Coast Rivers from YM. Both are worth getting.

 

[chrismckesson]

Thanks for the tax lessons. In the USA a sales tax (5 - 10% depending on state) is payable Each Time the boat changes hands. I think I prefer the VAT!

Can you recommend websites with searchable for-sale listings? I have been browsing on Yachtworld.com, but perhaps that's not as prominent in the UK as it is here?

Chris

 

[Salty John]

'......spending a nine months or a year, and then selling the boat and going home.'

You might want to check with the UK Embassy that a visitors visa for this length of time is available to you. Visitors visa's are normally issued for a maximum of 6 months.

 

[Bajansailor]

You could try www.boatshed.com for carrying out a general search.
And you could perhaps put a note on here, perhaps in the 'Liveaboard' section, re if anybody would like to do a straight boat swop with you?

 

[jonjo]

Deacons Boatyard at the top end of the Hamble River on the south coast sells yachts in your budget range. Also the Elephant Boatyard next door would be a particularly convivial location for a post purchase refit.

During a 6 month summer cruise you could cover the UK coast from the Isle of Wight to Suffolk and maybe pop over to France, I doubt you would find anything like Honfleur in North America!

http://www.deaconsboatyard.co.uk/Brokerage/Yacht_sales.asp (actually hosted on the major site you mention)

http://www.carte-postale.com/postcards/honfleur_eng/index.html

 

[caol]

This brokerage has been mentioned here as a good one

http://www.woodrolfe.com/brokerage.htm

Several potentially suitable boats. Pity the Cutlass is in Wales - good boats. Halcyon would be another one to look out for, or a Sadler 25. Tridents are good old boats too. Only 24 foot, but far roomier than a folkboat. You may find Centaurs a little out of your price range as they are quite sought after.

Whatever you decide on, shallow draft is best for the area you mention. Indeed, bilge keels, which are not much known in the US by very common over here, could be helpful - means you can easily take the ground in places that dry out. Usually means some loss in windward ability, but gains in access to places you might not see otherwise.

Good luck.

 

[chrismckesson]

Re: Buying a boat in the UK - all respondents

Thanks for those tips - and for the implicit confirmation that this is not a completely crazy idea.

Centaurs are sought after ehh? Well maybe I should adjust the budget upward a bit, in the knowledge that a bottom-value Centaur will probably always be sellable.

What are the hidden cost of buying in the UK? I assume the seller pays the broker's commission, on the order of 10% yes? Fees required to title the vessel with the government? Any restrictions that you know of regarding foreign ownership of a Birtish yacht?

And on the sale end of the trip: Can one place a yacht with a selling broker, and let the broker handle the whole affair? (citing "out of town owners" or some such.) What would one expect the fees to be in such case - e.g. is there a charge for storage at the seller's site, or other inspection or launch fees payable by the seller?

ANd finally - I have had good luck building the electric drive in my 36. I have considered finding a boat with a clapped-out engine, and replacing that with an electric drive. I doubt I would fully recover the cost of the electric drive, but I might at least pull the boat up from the bottom of the list "needs engine" to a slightly higher position. Is this true, or is it naive?

Thanks for all comments!

Chris McKesson

 

[tillergirl]

Re: Buying a boat in the UK - all respondents

Broker's get their fee from the vendors in the UK so its in the price. There is no requirement for a UK national to register their vessel but they can if they wish either using the Part 1 system or the SSR - Small Ships Registry. If buying a boat registered in one of these systems, there is a change of ownership fee which is under £100. Can a foreign national register a British Ship? I don't know the answer to that but you only need registration if you are going overseas into Europe or elsewhere so providing you don't want to do that, there is nothing to do. I think you may not be entitled to fly a British Ensign - might be wrong on that but I think it doesn't matter. I suspect nobody would ask you, in fact I can't think whose business it would be to ask.

Once you have done the deal, you become responsibile for any fees from that moment. But you should ensure that the vessel is not emcumbered with debts - ie storage fees in the yard or a mortgage/loan. Mortgagees generally require a vessel to be Part 1 Registered with the Registry of British Shipping so they can register their financial interest so you can check there. So you should be ensuring that it is clear from the vendor that there is nothing owing. You may then have to pay launching charges or berth fees from the moment you take it over.

Selling. Yes , you can leave it with a broker. Now you have to understand that the British love of yacht brokers is similar to their love of estate agents - realtors is it in your language. A number of brokers use this forum and they, of course, are fine up standing honest chaps. On the other hand, there have been some experiences quoted here. I went with my neighbour last year as he bought his first boat and I would regard the broker in that case as ... well I best not say. But of course he is the vendor's agent. Do you have the latin phrase cavet emptor? Buyer beware. To be honest its not that bad but you must bring your common sense with you.

I should think it would be easy to find a boat with a clapped out engine... hee-hee. I've not heard of electric drives over here so whether you would find the parts as economic as they are in the States is soemthing you should research. On selling it would certain be a novel craft so that might affect resale values. But I would have thought you could find something relatively easy. It's a buyer's market at the moment.

 

[chrismckesson]

Re: Buying a boat in the UK - all respondents

Thanks Tillergirl - you are a veritable fount of wisdom!

Yes, it all sounds quite similar to our system, with the exception that over here a boat is registered at least with the motor vehicle administration.

As regards brokers I have just been browsing The Boatshed and I am impressed at least from afar. One of my thoughts would be to find a broker I would like to do business with, and let him handle both transactions.

I've been looking at Centaurs on line and they do seem to be entirely livable for coastal cruising. And they seem to range from as low as GBP5000 to 15.000 and more.

I guess perhaps I should take my inquiry directly to a broker - perhaps I'll compose an email to Boatshed...

Thanks again! All suggestions / tips / advice / wake-up calls welcome!

Chris McKesson

 

[caol]

Re: Buying a boat in the UK - all respondents

I've sent you a PM, Chris

 

[Stemar]

Provided speed and windwards ability aren't too much of an issue, Snapdragons are very roomy for the length. They're tough and seaworthy, but best treated as a motorsailor if you've wind & tide against you. This 26 was the first I found in a quick google and could be worth a look. There are plenty of others, most at realistic prices.

 

[Gunfleet]

You're wrong - that's a lifting keel one. The fin and lifting keel ones go rather well. They're just hard to find. That one, with a big vetus motor and refurbed interior for £6000 looks like rather a bargain.

 

[tillergirl]

Re: Buying a boat in the UK - all respondents

I think that's not a bad idea although I think boatshed is a number of individuals in mutual association rather than one company. Might be wrong on that.

 

[Impaler]

Re: Buying a boat in the UK - all respondents

Try this website, I found my boat here, bypassed the broker and did a deal with the owner immediately saving enough for a good night out.
http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/php/welcome.php3

 

[Dalliance]

Re: Buying a boat in the UK - all respondents

I suspect that your only "administration" problem will be insuring the boat as you won't have a UK address. It might be worth calling your US insurer to ask whether they'll provide cover.
As for the Stour and the swatchways - excellent teritory and the Deben and Alde are two of the most fabulous local rivers too. I agree that a bilge or lift keel boat would be best for around here. Someone suggested a Sadler 25 - which was our first boat on the Stour. Excellent sea keeping ability but I don't know how many bilge keel versions were built and they tend to sell for around £10k rather than Eu10k. Good luck with your plan. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[chrismckesson]

Re: Buying a boat in the UK - all respondents

Good point about insurance. Is insurance mandatory (by law) in UK? It is not in the USA, although most marinas will require third-party liability cover before they'll rent you a long-term berth.

Chris