Buying a boat in Italy.

[gianenrico]

BY LAW boating authorities have 20 day time limit to fulfill a procedure (registering, de-registering, etc.

The procedure is rather simple:
1) Ask the Capitaneria di Porto where the boat is registered the "Nulla Osta alla Cancellazione dal RID" (Permit to cancel the boat from the Italian Pleasure Craft Register).
2) Fill the on-line application for the Belgian "Lettre de Pavillon" and get a ticket number
3) Prepare and scan the documents required by Belgian Ministry (proof of ownership, citizenship and residence certificate etc.), either in french or dutch, referring to the ticket.
4) Send copy of documents INCLUDING NULLA OSTA to Belgium, by e-mail or by traditional mail
5) Wait fron 2 to 4 weeks and receive the "Lettre de Pavillon" In some case they will e-mail You a capy so You can show to the Capitaneria di Porto and obtain the definitive cancellation from the RID.

So in any way the Capitaneria knows to whom/which italian citisen is the owner of the boat AND the owner/s ahs/have to declare evry year on their tax form the ownership of the boat and its value (this part is crazingly undefined: sale parice? Market value? Anyway You can't depreciate the boat....).

THREE main reasons:
a) Avoid mandatory safety equipment. E.G.: with italian flag You MUST have a self inflating raft, ISO 9650 std BUT with 1.5 liter of water and 500 grs of "food" per pax. This forces a two-year inspection interval and a "Special Inspection" every two. Inspections can be carriead out ONLY on the manufacturer's premises. They usually charge close to 80% of a selling price............ For this reason I proudly store a ISO9650 BRITISH MADE liferaft.
b) Avoid petty controls on any aspect of the boat. Of course Insurance must be valid, the Captain MUST have an italian permit (yes, here to sail Your own boat you must earn a permit...and it ain't just kid's stuff.
c) Smaller craft under 33 feet in Italy are not registered, do not require a permit BUT should not get farther than 12 nm from the land. With belgian flag You can sail in accordance to RCD. You still must have a permit.

So, the pizza man can be tracked in many other simpler way: e.g. the bill he pays in the home marina, whose list of berth-holders is yearly sent to the tax-man...and btw, payement MUST be trackable, no cash..... "Do no evil, have no fear!"

 

[AnnelyR]

Hello Spindreams,
I'm Italian, based in Italy, boughy and sold my boats in the past 40 years or so.
Let me clarify a couple of things:
1 - IF any deposit has been given and accepted, then the party who received it is bound to refund a DOUBLE amount if he/she decides to walk out of the deal; same if "concealed defects" are revealed by an agreed survey. I guess the seller is just tryng to take advantage of a "foreigner"; if by PM you let me know the place and the boat, I can try to check who the subject is, and what his standing is. This will not imply any obligation from You in my respect: we call it "sailor's frienship". You could also act through a broker.
2 - Is the boat italian-flagged?
3 - VAT must be paid in Italy from the origin of this tax, so either the boat is very old or it cames from a rather long story of sales or...they just lost the papaers.
Please keep in mind that in Italy (as in France) it is very common to get hold of a boat through a "Leasing Contract" (usually 36 months long, the boat being in the ownership of the finantial company and the user becoming the "owner" if and only if he pays a small final sum (1 to 10% of original boat value); boats acquired through a leasing have a favorable VAT treatment: 11% instead of 22% in Italy. As the boat was owned by an incorporated company, there MUST be a VAT record. Be advised that any boat longer than 10 meters in ITALY MUST be REGISTERED at the Capitanerie Di Porto and as You probably have seen, the boat has a "License Plate"; all transactions concerning a registered boat MUST be recorded by a Notary and the references written in the boat's license. Sales between private subjects are not subject to VAT, so only the original sale from Builder to first owner (finantial company OR private citizen) will have indication of a paid VAT. But all of the boat's history is trackable...if honest!.
Have the seller send You a scanned copy of the entire Boat's Licence (10 pages from cover to end of writtable pages, then a few pages of "Notices". Numbers written on the pages' foot).

I'm very sorry to hear You are having problems and, as said before, if I can be of any help, don't hesitate.
Gianenrico

Hello Gianerico
my partner and I are in the process of buying a boat in Viareggio, which I presume is not too far from you.
Unfortunately our surveyor (local in Viareggio) has not performed very well and we are looking for another one at short notice. Do you know to recommend anyone?
The survey that the local surveyor produced was merely descriptive, i.e. what anyone can see from photos and by just walking around the boat. It contained very little technical detail and none of the equipment was tested for fitness for purpose, no mention of condition of keel bolts, sea cocks, rigging etc. Considering the cost (almost twice as much as some UK surveyors would charge for a much more detailed survey), we would have expected more. Is this a standard in Italy and are we expecting too much?
Many thanks
Annely

 

[shiva2303]

Hello Spindreams,
I'm Italian, based in Italy, boughy and sold my boats in the past 40 years or so.
Let me clarify a couple of things:
1 - IF any deposit has been given and accepted, then the party who received it is bound to refund a DOUBLE amount if he/she decides to walk out of the deal; same if "concealed defects" are revealed by an agreed survey. I guess the seller is just tryng to take advantage of a "foreigner"; if by PM you let me know the place and the boat, I can try to check who the subject is, and what his standing is. This will not imply any obligation from You in my respect: we call it "sailor's frienship". You could also act through a broker.
2 - Is the boat italian-flagged?
3 - VAT must be paid in Italy from the origin of this tax, so either the boat is very old or it cames from a rather long story of sales or...they just lost the papaers.
Please keep in mind that in Italy (as in France) it is very common to get hold of a boat through a "Leasing Contract" (usually 36 months long, the boat being in the ownership of the finantial company and the user becoming the "owner" if and only if he pays a small final sum (1 to 10% of original boat value); boats acquired through a leasing have a favorable VAT treatment: 11% instead of 22% in Italy. As the boat was owned by an incorporated company, there MUST be a VAT record. Be advised that any boat longer than 10 meters in ITALY MUST be REGISTERED at the Capitanerie Di Porto and as You probably have seen, the boat has a "License Plate"; all transactions concerning a registered boat MUST be recorded by a Notary and the references written in the boat's license. Sales between private subjects are not subject to VAT, so only the original sale from Builder to first owner (finantial company OR private citizen) will have indication of a paid VAT. But all of the boat's history is trackable...if honest!.
Have the seller send You a scanned copy of the entire Boat's Licence (10 pages from cover to end of writtable pages, then a few pages of "Notices". Numbers written on the pages' foot).

I'm very sorry to hear You are having problems and, as said before, if I can be of any help, don't hesitate.
Gianenrico

Dear Gianenrico

I saw your Post as it shows you know the Italian Market about buying a used Yacht in Italy .... let me explain:

I am from Luxembourg living actually in Phuket Thailand ... I saw a boat from a private vendor that I like very much its in the Adria near Ravenna and it has Belgian Flag the owner is Italian the boat is from 1995 ..... I was thinking if we sign the sales contract for the agreed summ the I will deposit 10 % to the Vendor in Italy and arrange a survey .... I want to come then as well to Italy on that date .... if ( COVID shit ) I can ... the contract says if no defects or damages are found the rest summ ist to be paid within 5 days after the sea trial ... after the sea trial the vendor shall cancell the Belgian Registration and hand me the cancellation document ... ... and with this cancellation document and the sales contract of the boat I will be able to register the boat in my name in Luxembourg ............... Please am I missing something ... as this will be a sum of 85000 Eur I cannot make any mistakes ...... THANK YOU in advance Raymond

 

[Drake Ramoire]

Hello Spindreams,
I'm Italian, based in Italy, boughy and sold my boats in the past 40 years or so.
Let me clarify a couple of things:
1 - IF any deposit has been given and accepted, then the party who received it is bound to refund a DOUBLE amount if he/she decides to walk out of the deal; same if "concealed defects" are revealed by an agreed survey. I guess the seller is just tryng to take advantage of a "foreigner"; if by PM you let me know the place and the boat, I can try to check who the subject is, and what his standing is. This will not imply any obligation from You in my respect: we call it "sailor's frienship". You could also act through a broker.
2 - Is the boat italian-flagged?
3 - VAT must be paid in Italy from the origin of this tax, so either the boat is very old or it cames from a rather long story of sales or...they just lost the papaers.
Please keep in mind that in Italy (as in France) it is very common to get hold of a boat through a "Leasing Contract" (usually 36 months long, the boat being in the ownership of the finantial company and the user becoming the "owner" if and only if he pays a small final sum (1 to 10% of original boat value); boats acquired through a leasing have a favorable VAT treatment: 11% instead of 22% in Italy. As the boat was owned by an incorporated company, there MUST be a VAT record. Be advised that any boat longer than 10 meters in ITALY MUST be REGISTERED at the Capitanerie Di Porto and as You probably have seen, the boat has a "License Plate"; all transactions concerning a registered boat MUST be recorded by a Notary and the references written in the boat's license. Sales between private subjects are not subject to VAT, so only the original sale from Builder to first owner (finantial company OR private citizen) will have indication of a paid VAT. But all of the boat's history is trackable...if honest!.
Have the seller send You a scanned copy of the entire Boat's Licence (10 pages from cover to end of writtable pages, then a few pages of "Notices". Numbers written on the pages' foot).

I'm very sorry to hear You are having problems and, as said before, if I can be of any help, don't hesitate.
Gianenrico

Hello Gianenrico,

I am negotiating the purchase of a Power Catamaran in Mar Tirreno, can you assist ?
Regards Chris C
00. 44. 790. 654. 46. 24

 

[MapisM]

Folks, I see that the above 2017 post of Gianenrico is one of his last forum posts.
No clue about whether he's still around or not, but be aware that he could not even read your requests.

I am also Italian and based in Italy as he is (or at least was), and I'm happy to assist as far as I can.
But I'm afraid that "as far as I can" in practice means very little.
Not only because we are still living in covid times, but also because I'm based in Sardinia and I am not going back to mainland in the near future.
But I'm happy to make a phone call, help with some translations, stuff like that.
Feel free to ask - the worst that can happen is that I might tell you sorry, I can't help!

 

[psousa]

Hello!

I’m about to buy a boat in Italy but I have some doubts as I bought all my boats in France and I’ve never paid anything to deflag. The French brokers always handled all French formalities to have the deflag document sent to my address. In my country is the same: seller pays deflag, buyer pays registration under new ownership/new flag.

The italian broker is telling me in Italy the buyer must pay for the flag cancelation (deflag). And he spoke about considerable amounts. Around 2000/3000€ if I can recall correctly.
The broker is getting 3% of the business but the mentioned amount will be paid on top of the broker fee. The boat is currently registered under Italian flag and should be registered under foreign flag (obviously the new registration will be at my expenses) once I get the flag cancelation certificate (or sale certification with ownership reserve? Is it like this?).

I have no contract signed so far but we want to have it signed next week. But I need to feel comfortable also with the legal procedures before signature, so I would kindly ask someone to explain me how it works in Italy.

Can someone please write the steps we need to take care of in order to have an Italian flagged vessel deflaged (flag canceled)? Places where to deal with these steps, if they can be carried out by the buyer itself (or needs an agency), how much it will cost (more or less) and who usually pays for it (buyer, seller, broker).

thanks in advance

 

[MapisM]

Can someone please write the steps we need to take care of in order to have an Italian flagged vessel deflaged (flag canceled)? Places where to deal with these steps, if they can be carried out by the buyer itself (or needs an agency), how much it will cost (more or less) and who usually pays for it (buyer, seller, broker).

I can summarize what I did myself upon the sale of my previous boat, IT flagged, to a friend of mine who is a French citizen and was going to have her registered in Belgium.
But don't take this as a reference, because no broker was involved, and there was a fully trusted relationship between myself and the buyer.

In a more typical transaction with a broker involved, and arranged with the aim of avoiding potential risks on either sides, what you were suggested is actually normal in Italy.
Possibly aside from the agency costs (in fact, it's usually an agency and not the broker himself who takes care of the bureaucracy involved), which I think are a bit too high.

Anyway, the more streamlined way to arrange the process is the following, which is what I did as the owner of the boat which was going to be sold, is as follows:

1) I requested to the competent Coast Guard office the so-called "nulla-osta" for deflagging the vessel, due to sale and consequent registration in another EU Country.
This is a document where the Coast Guard confirms that the vessel can be deflagged, and commit to finalize that upon receipt of the final registration in another Country.
The cost of this request is just a €16 stamp.

2) as soon as I received from the CG this document, I gave it to the buyer, who together with other papers required by the Belgian authorities requested the B registration.
I can't remember the cost involved with that, but it's not much, and it depends on where you are going to register the boat, anyway.

3) once the buyer got the registration document from B, he gave me a copy, which I sent to the Italian CG, who executed the final cancellation - job done.

In other words, the cancellation itself is essentially free of charge, aside from the €16 stamp.
But you can easily understand why normally the seller doesn't want to apply for the cancellation before being certain that the sale is executed and he gets the price agreed.
OTOH, the buyer doesn't want to pay the boat before being certain that she can be deflagged (in fact, the "nulla-osta" is also a proof that there are no charges attached to the vessel).
And this is the reason why most transactions are handled through brokers+maritime agencies, both of which obviously expect to earn a crust in the process.

In your boots, if you like the boat, I wouldn't worry too much about these costs, because annoying as it can appear to waste money on bureaucracy, you can see it as an insurance that the process is properly handled.
And depending on the boat value, even €3k could be not so relevant, in the grand scheme.
You can also try to negotiate a bit of discount, but nobody will bother wasting the time to follow the above process unless paid decent money for it, of course.

The most important thing is to avoid like the plague some crook brokers, of which unfortunately there are some, in this business.
In my last boat search I came across many Italian brokers - possibly all of the larger ones - and among them certainly there are some which I would rather not deal with.
Not that I can take any responsibility also for the best ones, mind.
But if you'd like to check my view on the one you are in contact with, just send me a PM with the details.

 

[pfmaia]

Thanks for your insight @MapisM, this is very helpful.

I have bought a boat in Sardinia and it's a been a bit of a nightmare. Can you please let me know how long did it take you to get the "nulla-osta" from the Coast Guard?

I want to bring the boat to Spain and will need this to get the new registration and MMSI code.

 

[MapisM]

Can you please let me know how long did it take you to get the "nulla-osta" from the Coast Guard?

Not much. Can't remember exactly, but I'd say less than one week.
Trouble is, this very much depends on the specific CG office where the boat is registered, because that's where the request must be addressed.
In my case, it was a rather small but very efficient one, which also answered very promptly a couple of inquiry email that I sent them.
But that's definitely not the norm. I heard of folks waiting almost one month, if not even more!