Buying a boat in Holland

[Phideaux]

Has anyone got any experience in buying a boat from a broker in Holland?

1. Are there any processes or procedures, especially regarding contracts, payment and taxes, that are different to the UK?

2. Is there anything else to watch out for that would make buying from the Netherlands risky?

3. Does anyone know a good surveyor near Medemblik who could both survey the boat and help negotiating the transaction?

Thanks in eager anticipation of your help

 

[macd]

I can't help much, but remember chatting some years ago to someone who had bought a boat in Holland. He was full of praise for the process and treatment he received. If I remember correctly, Dutch brokers are required to be registered and have some quaification or other.

 

[PCUK]

Pardon me if this is a little cheeky, but are you thinking of a Dutch steel boat as I have a 12 metre steel/aluminium flybridge cruiser for sale based in the UK with a nearly 300hp Cummins and a superb modern inventory. (It is also listed with a Netherlands broker!!!)
PM me if you are interested.

 

[Phideaux]

Pardon me if this is a little cheeky, but are you thinking of a Dutch steel boat as I have a 12 metre steel/aluminium flybridge cruiser for sale based in the UK with a nearly 300hp Cummins and a superb modern inventory. (It is also listed with a Netherlands broker!!!)
PM me if you are interested.

Sorry, 'fraid not.

 

[ITH]

Buying in Holland

I bought my Nauticat 35 in 2007 from Joppe International - based in Breskens (www.joppeint.com) Haven't bought in the UK, so can't help with comparison/differences in the process between the UK and Holland. However the process seemed to follow, more or less, the guidelines from the RYA about boat buying, altho' obviously it is subject to Dutch Law. It seems to be accepted practice to put down a (20%) deposit once you have made an offer.

I used an independant (NVEP qualified) yacht surveyor - details below. I found him a good advocate and he did a thorough job. English is excellent.

John P.L.M. Robbe
Crawford & Company Nederland BV
Warenarburg 1
2907 CK Capelle a/d IJssel
Tel. 010 4535535. Fax 010 4529204

E-mail: crawford@nvep.nl

Hope that helps.

 

[Phideaux]

I bought my Nauticat 35 in 2007 from Joppe International - based in Breskens (www.joppeint.com) Haven't bought in the UK, so can't help with comparison/differences in the process between the UK and Holland. However the process seemed to follow, more or less, the guidelines from the RYA about boat buying, altho' obviously it is subject to Dutch Law. It seems to be accepted practice to put down a (20%) deposit once you have made an offer.

I used an independant (NVEP qualified) yacht surveyor - details below. I found him a good advocate and he did a thorough job. English is excellent.

John P.L.M. Robbe
Crawford & Company Nederland BV
Warenarburg 1
2907 CK Capelle a/d IJssel
Tel. 010 4535535. Fax 010 4529204

E-mail: crawford@nvep.nl

Hope that helps.

Thank you, yes very helpful.

 

[Stork_III]

Has anyone got any experience in buying a boat from a broker in Holland?

1. Are there any processes or procedures, especially regarding contracts, payment and taxes, that are different to the UK?

2. Is there anything else to watch out for that would make buying from the Netherlands risky?

3. Does anyone know a good surveyor near Medemblik who could both survey the boat and help negotiating the transaction?

Thanks in eager anticipation of your help

search for previous threads on buying in Netherlands. This one may help http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124913

 

[Phideaux]

search for previous threads on buying in Netherlands. This one may help http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124913

Thanks for the link. €1.45 = £1 in 2007 wish it was still at that rate.

 

[marcot]

boat in Holland

recently bought a HR48 in Holland through a broker. I'm Italian and agreed everything in english: the broker (on the seller's side) spoke excellent english. we agreed on a contract (in english) with a 10% advance payment. I asked the Hallberg Rassy for a recognised surveyour (Hiswa) - official organization-.
when the survey was performed I agreed with the dutch seller for a litlle discount. I kept the dutch sail.

proof of VAT paid with a dutch certificate + prior invoices. asked for a Dutch Kadaster proof of no liens. (boats under 15mt are Kadaster exempt but I wanted a negative certification).

When I paid the sum we signed a bill of sale (in english) with seller signature notarized and apostylled.
I asked also for the international certificate of pleasure craft in my name.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Has anyone got any experience in buying a boat from a broker in Holland?

1. Are there any processes or procedures, especially regarding contracts, payment and taxes, that are different to the UK?

2. Is there anything else to watch out for that would make buying from the Netherlands risky?

3. Does anyone know a good surveyor near Medemblik who could both survey the boat and help negotiating the transaction?

Thanks in eager anticipation of your help

The Netherlands have a well developed method of buying yachts. The whole process is well structured and MUCH better than the rather feeble RYA contract.

The main points are as follows:
1. The buyer must declare all faults in the sales literature.

2. You make an offer "subject to Survey" and pay a 10% deposit.

3. You now have to have a survey within an agreed time span - usually 4 weeks.

4. The surveyor will publish his report. If there are any faults not disclosed in the details of sale, the cost of this will come of Euro for Euro subject to arbitration by the Surveyor.
For example:
Duff Batteries not disclosed - full value of replacement off
20 year old instrument set not working - allow only 25% of the new value off.

5. Once 10% of the offer price is exceeded the contract is off, and you renegotiate or get your deposit back.

The benefit of this contract is very clear on disclosure of faults, and the conduct of money off for undisclosed faults. This is much better than the woolly RYA contract which does little or nothing to specify how faults are treated, so leaving it quite unclear at what point you can demand your deposit back. A Seller does not have to drop a penny off the price.

So in short, a better regulated environment for buying and selling than the UK

Good luck

 

[Phideaux]

The Netherlands have a well developed method of buying yachts. The whole process is well structured and MUCH better than the rather feeble RYA contract.

The main points are as follows:
1. The buyer must declare all faults in the sales literature.

2. You make an offer "subject to Survey" and pay a 10% deposit.

3. You now have to have a survey within an agreed time span - usually 4 weeks.

4. The surveyor will publish his report. If there are any faults not disclosed in the details of sale, the cost of this will come of Euro for Euro subject to arbitration by the Surveyor.
For example:
Duff Batteries not disclosed - full value of replacement off
20 year old instrument set not working - allow only 25% of the new value off.

5. Once 10% of the offer price is exceeded the contract is off, and you renegotiate or get your deposit back.

The benefit of this contract is very clear on disclosure of faults, and the conduct of money off for undisclosed faults. This is much better than the woolly RYA contract which does little or nothing to specify how faults are treated, so leaving it quite unclear at what point you can demand your deposit back. A Seller does not have to drop a penny off the price.

So in short, a better regulated environment for buying and selling than the UK

Good luck

That's very helpful, thanks. I was slightly concerned that the Volvo engine was mentioned in the general description, but no details (hours, service history etc) were in the full specification and therefore there could be a problem that might require an engine replacement. I'll still email a question asking for hours, serve history and condition.

 

[corinthmistral]

Bought a FS35 sailing yacht in Holland in October. It was a private sale - me in England, boat in Holland and owner in Germany! And the boat did not have a VAT certificate. But ... all worked out well and the boat is now moored up in my local marina in the UK. Advice:

- use a good broker and ask for the sale contract in English - this will help you if you want to sell it in England in the future. I paid a broker (in Kortgene, south Holland) EUR 500 to handle the transaction / draw up contract and most importantly, collect the keys and handle the money transfer. I previously instructed a different broker and he was hopeless.

- the standard contracts (HISWA - the Durtch equivalent of the RYA) are a bit different to the UK and generally ask for a much bigger deposit (20%) and if significant defects are found, you cannot pull out of the sale - the seller just has to rectify them or adjust the price accordingly. That to me was significant so I negotiated that out. Dont be afraid to negotiate!

- in Holland, if you don't have a VAT certificate, the local customs authority (Douane) will happily consider all the papers you have and, if satisfied, issue a "VAT deemed paid" certificate - they did this for me - they were FANTASTIC - answered the phone promptly / gave me their mobile number when out of the office (would the UK customs do this ... ?) and the certificate arrived one week later for the princely cost of ... nothing whatsoever. (Again - would this happen in the UK ... ?) So now I have a certificate from an EU customs authority confirming, unequivocally, that VAT is paid on the boat. UK customs were generally useless and wouldn't commit to answering any of my enquiries about VAT in writing, hence I decided to get this certificate from the Dutch authorities.

- use a good surveyor - I used Duursma Versluis (they will survey anywhere in Holland) www.duursma.info - again, they were fantastic and cheaper than the UK - EUR 500 for a 35' BOAT. They were on the boat for 5 hours and phoned me straight afterwards for a 40 min discussion. Their detailed colour report arrived by PDF / email 2 days later, hard copy by post within the week.

- finally ... go for it - i gave up trying to find a good quality, good condition boat in the UK - in my experience, boats generally are better looked after in Holland because the inland waters are brackish / fresh and the cost of keeping the boats there is generally much less than the UK - to have the boat hauled out, scrubbed and put back in was EUR 95! A lot of people keep them ashore - my boat was kept in an undercover storage unit for 17 of its 20 years and it really shows.

If you need any further info feel free to PM me.

Rob

 

[corinthmistral]

nb, should also have mentioned:

- get the seller to sign an English Bill of Sale (to be witnessed - broker can do this), you can get a proforma from the MCA website

- Duursma Versluis are recognised by UK insurers (you need to make sure of this with other surveyors)

- get the broker to do a registry search against the boat - current name / former names, owner and owner's wife to check for undischarged mortgages etc. It costs a few euros and they do in on-line, they can give you a print out for peace of mind and should you wish to sell in the UK, it is useful to have (probably not applicable for your purchase, but I also did a search in Germany, as the seller of my boat was German - this was free of charge, and confirmation was emaioled to me by the clerk in the German ship's registry)

Hope that helps.

 

[Phideaux]

nb, should also have mentioned:

- get the seller to sign an English Bill of Sale (to be witnessed - broker can do this), you can get a proforma from the MCA website

- Duursma Versluis are recognised by UK insurers (you need to make sure of this with other surveyors)

- get the broker to do a registry search against the boat - current name / former names, owner and owner's wife to check for undischarged mortgages etc. It costs a few euros and they do in on-line, they can give you a print out for peace of mind and should you wish to sell in the UK, it is useful to have (probably not applicable for your purchase, but I also did a search in Germany, as the seller of my boat was German - this was free of charge, and confirmation was emaioled to me by the clerk in the German ship's registry)

Hope that helps.

Thanks, very helpful indeed. I'll try and speak with the Dutch brokers tomorrow and see what's what.

 

[yodave]

We just (this year/2011) bought a 32ft yacht in the Netherlands. I found the broker to be excellent. We agreed a price (in principle) before travelling over for the viewing. The boat was better in the flesh than in the photos.

We had made an offer on a similar boat in the UK, but the survey threw up problems and the deal fell through. Although it's our first boat, in the end we didn't get a survey carried out on the boat we actually bought. Why? Because the broker was licensed, and has a reputation to maintain. Perhaps more importantly, because we had seen lots of boats in the UK, and the one we bought was head and shoulders above anything else in our price range. We realised that she was the one, we knew that the survey would throw up some niggly bits, but when you've viewed as many over-priced, poorly maintained wrecks as we have, you can spot a good'un when you stumble across one.

We went for a sea trial, and everything worked including the navigation lights. Things like that are indicators of general boat maintenance - also check to see if the ropes in the storage compartments are neatly stowed, or just chucked in. The hull on our boat had been fully professionally reconditioned, a new engine, newish sails, bowthuster etc, etc. The Dutch generally seem to spend money upgrading their boats ...whereas in the UK many owners seem to avoid investing in their boats, yet still feel they are worth more than they really are.

We checked paperwork for the maintenance, repairs etc, the boat still had the original marketing info and sales paperwork. Make sure you cast your eyes over what's available. Contract was in English. Nothing terribly difficult. No pressure to do the deal.

The Euro value is a bummer; but you will probably have a window of a couple of weeks to play with. We set ourselves an exchange rate target; we did the deal when we were just about at our target, but knew that our time window was running out.

Don't forget to budget for bringing your new boat back home. That adds a bit, as you have to stock the boat remotely from the UK in advance. We're going through that now, in advance of bringing her over here next month. We recently bought a good quality used liferaft on marktplaats.nl and had it delivered to the boat, and we're also shopping online at the chandlers local to the marina (use Google translate to view pages that aren't in English).

Don't worry too much. It's just commonsense. Do your homework, and you should be okay. Oh ...if you can, have fun. We did!

Good luck...

 

[Chris_Robb]

- the standard contracts (HISWA - the Durtch equivalent of the RYA) are a bit different to the UK and generally ask for a much bigger deposit (20%) and if significant defects are found, you cannot pull out of the sale - the seller just has to rectify them or adjust the price accordingly. That to me was significant so I negotiated that out. Dont be afraid to negotiate!

Rob

Rob, Why did you want to negotiate out of the the bit where the seller deals with all the problems or reduces the price accordingly. This was the really good thing about the dutch contract. You can always agree to reduce the deposit to 10% in which case when the value of the problems found = 10% the deals is off. I agree that some of the defects up to 20% of the contract value may include problems that I really would not want in my boat. So with the lower deposit, I think I would positively want those clauses in. (IMHO)

 

[Phideaux]

Does anyone know the prevailing Dutch attitude to how they price their s/h boats for sale; is a 10-20% reduction likely to be negotiable, or is the price asked pretty much what's expected?

Obviously, I'm looking for similar examples of the same model up for sale in Holland, but it's difficult to compare due to differences in specification, electronics, age, condition etc.

 

[aluijten]

Does anyone know the prevailing Dutch attitude to how they price their s/h boats for sale; is a 10-20% reduction likely to be negotiable, or is the price asked pretty much what's expected?

Being Dutch and having bought a s/h boat just a few months ago, I think that question is impossible to answer with a single figure.
We managed to sell our previous boat within 4 weeks for almost the initial asking price (minus 4% or so). The boat we bought went for over 20% less paid compared to the original asking price, despite being a yacht from a well known and popular brand (in Holland).
Why?
State of maintenance and presentation. These two factors really influence the price paid. Most people are not interested in buying a lot of work, unless the price is right. Many sellers are far too optimistic about the state of the goods offered for sale.
But you can also find yachts well maintained and priced sensibly. Those will go very quickly.
If any rule is to be applied it might be that boats that are for sale for a long time and still up for sale by the end of the season will offer better negotiation possibilities then other yachts.

To make a long story short. The situation around pricing flexibility is not much different from the UK is my guess
It may be the offerings you can find in NL are attractive to UK buyers, I cannot judge that as I'm from NL.

 

[Phideaux]

Being Dutch and having bought a s/h boat just a few months ago, I think that question is impossible to answer with a single figure.
We managed to sell our previous boat within 4 weeks for almost the initial asking price (minus 4% or so). The boat we bought went for over 20% less paid compared to the original asking price, despite being a yacht from a well known and popular brand (in Holland).
Why?
State of maintenance and presentation. These two factors really influence the price paid. Most people are not interested in buying a lot of work, unless the price is right. Many sellers are far too optimistic about the state of the goods offered for sale.
But you can also find yachts well maintained and priced sensibly. Those will go very quickly.
If any rule is to be applied it might be that boats that are for sale for a long time and still up for sale by the end of the season will offer better negotiation possibilities then other yachts.

To make a long story short. The situation around pricing flexibility is not much different from the UK is my guess
It may be the offerings you can find in NL are attractive to UK buyers, I cannot judge that as I'm from NL.

Thank you, that is helpful. I can never be quite sure if the cultures of different nations are the same as in the UK where there can be considerable flexibility over the price being initially asked and the price that the seller is expecting or would be willing to accept. I didn't want to think about an offer perhaps 20% below the advertised price, if this would be insulting. Obviously, as you say, it all depends on condition and comparable market values.

 

[ianc1200]

Sorry to ask a question on an old thread, but I'm about to make an offer on a boat in Holland, & the offer will be 22000 euro's. I've been worried about who I pay the money to - it's advertised by a boatbuilder, but the posts about recommend getting a broker/agent involved to handle the money, ownership issues; seems sensible but 500 euro's is a fair chunk of the price. Would even the deposit be paid to the broker/agent?