Buying a boat from Sardinia

[crossy]

All,

We are looking around for a new boat and have found a promising option located in Sardinia. Now, I have never bought a boat from Europe and so am looking for a little advice.

I assume I would need to look for the obvious ones, check title, CE certificate, boat builders certificate, ensure no VAT outstanding, factor in de-flagging costs etc. These have been confirmed by the broker who I spoke to again today.

I assume the process would be the same as buying a boat from the UK, view boat, put deposit down, get engine and hull survey etc. The broker has agreed that he would meet me in Milano Linate and fly on with me from here to Sardinia.

As far as I can see, once I had actually bought the boat, I would then need to take the boat by sea to Antibes or somewhere similar in order to get it on a lorry for the journey home. A good holiday opportunity I feel.

A few questions though:
Do people generally use local surveyors or fly one out from the UK?
Are Italian brokers trustworthy? Ie, if I gave him a deposit for a boat how would I ensure that it’s all above board and that my money was safe? Presumably there are plenty of scams?
How do you actually pay for the boat, do people do this by bank transfer or is it better to deal in Cash?
What other risks and pitfalls are there in buying a boat from Sardinia or the rest of Europe?

I’d really appreciate input from anyone who has been through this before.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[Portofino]

Just bought one in Naples and del to Cannes -gone throught the process.( Itama)
Build up a rapport with the broker tel / email etc -looks like you have done that with the flight arrangements ?
Check out the website .pick up from Airport normal by broker / host
Yeh they are trustworthy -take a mate a well built one -to as well as other things be abe to cast a indipendant 3rd view on the guy and the set up -
You will know if can deal with him particulary over a free local lunch / dinner before flight home

There are some real bargains out in Italy -leave your UK stiff upper lip above board attitude at home .
Be prepared to listen to the deal structure and differentiate between white money and black money .
The deal will be a proportion of both , and a brown envelope will be involved at some stage .
If you are fazzed by this then don,t cast your search to Med Europe .
The paperwork is straight forward you should see the IT reg book which will have all the owners names in and proves the VAT paid -boat should have a CE plate on it.
Broker will arrange a tempory addition to the book when you pay the balance .
At the view ing I requested a sea trail -after all you have travelled a long way so not a joy rider .
I WOT ed it drove it etc for 40 mins no issues .In the early negotiations I did offer to sub the diesel ,but they would not have it - like trying a used car
10% dep I paid to the broker by IBAN -and took lots of pic s of the boat for the wife -somehow he seemed to be in the background ( handy to trace him ?)
Balance -IBAN could be last owner or a relative for the balance in the agreed figure in the BoS
And " other considerations " between you and the broker
You don,t really want to be going through airports with more than €10 K .
Survey -they not as keen ( anally retentive ) as us depends on the deal -remember its X years old not new

My del skipper was from Sardinia and I would recommend him ,if you eventually buy
3 days to La Rague assuming lift to truck

Try and get a price to sell before viewing .ie after broker sends you more pics close ups -
Say " I will come to view sea trail and buy @ this price -if it's as you describe "
Assuming its correctly described -my broker told me the faults before I went -I asked him -rarther than find them .
Just listen to how the deal will go .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I have recently bought a boat in Italy which incidentally is currently moored in Sardinia. I have bought a number of boats in foreign countries and there are few general rules that I follow. First I wouldn't use a local surveyor; I'm sure they're all mostly honest but you never know so fly a good surveyor out from the UK. At least you'll be able to converse in English. Then if you decide to go ahead with the boat, demand to see all the documents you think you're going to get on completion. Do not accept photocopies or scans; get on a plane and check them out. At the same time ask whether the boat is subject to a leasing agreement. If it is you're going to have to arrange with the broker to pay off the outstanding balance on the lease from the purchase money. I wouldn't rely on the seller to do it
On the day that you complete the purchase, be present in the yard/marina to take possession of the boat the second your payment lands in the brokers account. Inform the marina that you are the new owner and preferably move the boat to another marina or better to another country altogether. You will obviously need to have arranged insurance and an online SSR registration document beforehand. When you are buying a boat abroad you are never going to find out for sure whether there are any outstanding loans or debts on the boat so its always wise to move it straightaway unless you are very sure about who is selling the boat. Lastly, its a good idea to change the name too for the same reason
Having said all this, I've never had any major problems buying boats in Italy, Spain, Majorca and Germany apart from one time when the documentation wasn't as described

 

[MapisM]

The boat moored in northern Sardinia, I suppose?
I'm guessing this from your trip plans, because afaik there are no direct flights from the UK to northern Sardinia during winter.
Otoh, if she's moored somewhere in southern Sardinia, it might be more convenient for you to fly directly to Cagliari.

Anyhow, not much to add to what has already been said - it seems that the forum experience on purchase of IT boats is growing by the minute.
I'd better ask here also myself as an Italian, if I were considering a new boat!

Just a couple of (minor) comments:

Be prepared to listen to the deal structure and differentiate between white money and black money .
The deal will be a proportion of both , and a brown envelope will be involved at some stage .
If you are fazzed by this then don,t cast your search to Med Europe .

I'm not saying this can't happen, but I wouldn't consider it as a necessary evil, for the very simple reason that there is no economic advantage at all, for an Italian owner selling an Italian boat, in declaring a lower amount in the transaction.
In fact, if I would (in crossy's boots, as a buyer) insist to pay the whole amount without any cash, and the seller would ask for a somewhat higher price because of that, I would strongly argue against such request, because I can assure you that a normal payment doesn't involve any economic disadvantage whatsoever for the seller.

When you are buying a boat abroad you are never going to find out for sure whether there are any outstanding loans or debts on the boat

M, actually if the boat is IT flagged AND registered (it could be not registered if <10m), then a buyer can actually be MUCH safer than when buying in the UK, from this viewpoint.
In fact, any mortgage on registered goods (houses, cars, boats...) has to be notarized, on pain of nullity.
So, it's just a matter of making a search on the appropriate register - something that the agent which is being used for formalizing the property transfer does in advance routinely.

 

[Portofino]

You should see a little A5 size blue reg book ( think car V5) but this is more detailed .
MapishM is correct it's actually more safer in IT to find previous ownership history , loan and vat status
This normally kept on board for "guardia fianaza " control stops
Licenza Di Ablilitazione alla navigazione della imbarcazioni da diporto munite de " marcatura CE "
Your BoS "dichiarazione Di vendors Di imbarcazioni " will be signed by the seller and a photocopy on the back page of an official stamp by the authorities and there signature .
Ironically enough the process seems safe

 

[adey]

Be prepared to listen to the deal structure and differentiate between white money and black money .
The deal will be a proportion of both , and a brown envelope will be involved at some stage...

Not my experience at all. Maybe things are different in the South but in the North no one would touch more than 1,000 euros in cash, and even then insisted in physical and e-mail receipts.
You couldn't even buy a coffee without getting a receipt.

Edit.
One other thing to bear in mind is that some brokers charge a fee to the buyer. I wouldn't pay it personally but make sure all fees involved are agreed upfront (commissions, de-reg fee etc)

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Not my experience at all. Maybe things are different in the South but in the North no one would touch more than 1,000 euros in cash, and even then insisted in physical and e-mail receipts.
You couldn't even buy a coffee without getting a receipt.

I agree. As well as the boat I bought in Italy recently I've been doing business in Italy for 30yrs and I've never been asked to make a payment in cash. Italians, particularly Italian businesses have become paranoid over recent years about proper receipts, invoices and other documentation. In fact I would say that you're more likely to be asked for payment in cash in the UK now than Italy

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

In fact, any mortgage on registered goods (houses, cars, boats...) has to be notarized, on pain of nullity.
So, it's just a matter of making a search on the appropriate register - something that the agent which is being used for formalizing the property transfer does in advance routinely.

Its not officially registered debts that you need to be concerned about but unregistered debts and debts relating to unpaid work on the boat. Yes I know this is an unlikely scenario but if there are simple steps you can take to minimise your exposure to this risk then I would say why not take them

 

[Portofino]

Not my experience at all. Maybe things are different in the South but in the North no one would touch more than 1,000 euros in cash, and even then insisted in physical and e-mail receipts.
You couldn't even buy a coffee without getting a receipt.



I had a different experience -not complaining eg I asked the broker before we set off on the 400 mile del trip if he could organise a fuel bowser to top up the tanks
Sure enough a phone call -a few hours later a small Piagio fuel lorry trundles up alongside .
euro 1,40 / L for cash or E 1.70 ish with a receipt with card .
The lads in the yard did a bit of work/ prep -again cash or if card / cheque + 20 % to show the tax on the invoice.

Gardia fianazia did "do us" outside Rome -all the paperwork in order after 45mins looking for probs + phone calls
,We had a chuckle cos its not ON the water where they need to look its the activity off the water where the IT Gov is seemingly loosing out .

I bought a pair of brand new props too ( as spares ) allegedly worth E 5000 for E1600 cash no receipt

I did not ask they gave me options on how to pay

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I had a different experience -not complaining eg I asked the broker before we set off on the 400 mile del trip if he could organise a fuel bowser to top up the tanks
Sure enough a phone call -a few hours later a small Piagio fuel lorry trundles up alongside .
euro 1,40 / L for cash or E 1.70 ish with a receipt with card .
The lads in the yard did a bit of work/ prep -again cash or if card / cheque + 20 % to show the tax on the invoice.

I want the number for that fuel bowser guy! I've bought '000's of Euros of fuel in Italy this year at €1.70-1.80 and I'd be delighted to pay cash for a lower price!

 

[MapisM]

Its not officially registered debts that you need to be concerned about but unregistered debts and debts relating to unpaid work on the boat.

Yes and no, 'cause unregistered debts don't give the creditors any rights against a bona fide new buyer, let alone the right to seize the boat.
In other words, they should prove that the buyer was party to the seller in a fraud to avoid paying the existing debt, which in practice means that these creditors are screwed, and unless they have a crook lawyer, they would never even bother going after the buyer legally.

The only partial exception to this is the "diritto di ritenzione", which I think translates as a sort of lien, to which is entitled whoever has the boat lying within their own property, either in the water or on the dry.
This is the only entity which can restrict anyone from moving the boat elsewhere, before any outstanding debt towards them is paid in full.
In fact, coming to think of it, I would change slightly your suggestion re. what to do with the marina: much better to ask them, before finalizing the deal (or contextually at the very latest), a written declaration that whatever was due to them up to that moment has been paid in full by the previous owner.
This way, there's no need to rush elsewhere like you stole the thing...

Also because in crossy's boots, I wouldn't miss the opportunity to spend some time down there.
Even without knowing where the boat is exactly, I've yet to see a place in Sardinia where the sea isn't worth cruising a bit!

 

[MapisM]

I had a different experience....

Well, in my post I was talking strictly of the boat purchase transaction.
With other type of purchases, what you are saying might well happen.
Of course, if some fuel or props paid in cash are respectively diluted or somehow defective, you wouldn't have many chances to pretend anything...
...But as they say, you pays your money...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yes and no, 'cause unregistered debts don't give the creditors any rights against a bona fide new buyer, let alone the right to seize the boat.

Accepted but if a creditor does seize the boat even if he's not entitled to, you may then be faced with the problem of going through the Italian legal system to recover it. Rather you than me!

Also because in crossy's boots, I wouldn't miss the opportunity to spend some time down there.
Even without knowing where the boat is exactly, I've yet to see a place in Sardinia where the sea isn't worth cruising a bit!

Also agreed although I have to say that the Golfe of Olbia reminded me of the E Channel sometimes!

 

[MapisM]

LOL, well, you're talking of the busiest ferry harbour of the whole island after all!
And being there during the highest peak of the boating season could only make things worse, of course...
Though TBH I'd rather swim in those waters than in the Channel anytime!

 

[crossy]

The boat moored in northern Sardinia, I suppose?

Indeed so, I have been advised to fly to Milano Linate to meet the broker and then on to Olbia from there.

 

[crossy]

Thanks for all your feedback, some really useful insight here.

Should the purchase go ahead then I think we would look to agree a prospective price before travelling subject to condition and take a surveyor with us. If all was well then we would combine the purchase with an opportunity to cruise the med and head for a pick up point in France, maybe Antibes, where we could put it on a lorry.

The bit I am still a little unclear on is what is required for the registration paperwork and what is meant by de-flagging, is this the process of removing it from the Italian ships register and putting it on the British SSR? If do, does this need to be completed before I can drive the boat away and take it back to the UK?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Indeed so, I have been advised to fly to Milano Linate to meet the broker and then on to Olbia from there.

Have you checked whether there are any direct Ryanair flights from Stansted to Alghero? Might be more convenient than flying via Linate. Olbia is about 1/1/2 hrs drive from Alghero

 

[BartW]

The bit I am still a little unclear on is what is required for the registration paperwork and what is meant by de-flagging, is this the process of removing it from the Italian ships register and putting it on the British SSR? If do, does this need to be completed before I can drive the boat away and take it back to the UK?

to my experience, the boat registering in IT is a serious thing,
In my situation the unregistering = deflagging, was handled by a "agency" in Ital that does this kind of thing,
I took delivery of the boat before that this was finalised, but I was very Lucky that I had a serious broker who continued to take care of that, there were a few small issues, and it took approx 3 months time, all the dots and comma's need to be correct, especially as in my case the boat was commercially registered in Italy. (even the employment paperwork of the previous captain were part of the paperwork....)
So I would strongly recommand not to pay, nor take delivery of the boat before the IT unregistration is finalised.
Its all very official and common practice in IT, so if correctly taken care of the deflagging, it won't be difficult

In Belgium (and also in UK for part 1 reg) we need the "un-registration document in order to get the new registration

 

[Tranona]

Registering on the SSR is easy if you qualify (need to be UK resident essentially) and do is complete. So organise the SSR in advance of leaving to collect the boat - takes about a week. You can then transfer to the Part 1 when you get it back to UK. Part 1 will require a measurement survey plus all the paperwork so not so easy to do in advance, although if your surveyor is also an MCA measurement surveyor he could do this bit when he surveys the boat for you.

 

[MapisM]

Registering on the SSR is easy if you qualify (need to be UK resident essentially) and do is complete. So organise the SSR in advance of leaving to collect the boat - takes about a week.

Do you mean that you could register my boat in SSR while she's still in an official IT register, come to my marina, put a red duster on the flag pole, stick an SSR# on the stern, and head to Gibraltar to bring her to the UK?
Sounds scary - not that you would really want to, regardless!