Buying a boat from Italy (procedure)

[lanerboy]

Hi All

Can anyone please tell me what the catch is regards buying a boat from Italy if the boat is VAT paid, I have read something in the past I think that you have to pay a fee for bringing a boat out of Italy all advise welcomed again

cheers shawn

 

[Tranona]

Hi All

Can anyone please tell me what the catch is regards buying a boat from Italy if the boat is VAT paid, I have read something in the past I think that you have to pay a fee for bringing a boat out of Italy all advise welcomed again

cheers shawn

In principle, no different from buying a boat anywhere else in Europe from the tax point of view. If VAT has been paid correctly then it is valid across the EU. However you (or rather the seller) will have to deregister it which can be a long winded process. You need also to be aware that there is a possibility that ownership and tax payment may not be as transparent as in the UK and you need to take care that paperwork is in order and that you get clear title.

 

[Divemaster1]

Here's my story from 2004...

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?42546

 

[Jurgen]

Your not after ANOTHER boat are you Shawn lol

 

[lanerboy]

Your not after ANOTHER boat are you Shawn lol

yes Andy I am on the change again lol

 

[lanerboy]

Here's my story from 2004...

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?42546

cheers Alf

That makes me feel a whole lot better regards looking at boats in Italy I must say the boats I have been looking at do seem a lot cheaper in Italy and have all the toys on them so even with transport back to the uk it still makes them a lot cheaper

cheers

 

[rafiki_]

Shawn, Adey bought an Azimut from Italy a couple of years ago. A pm to him might help. You might also talk to Adam Baker at Global Yacht Brokers, he helped the previous owner of my Azi to buy an A 46 from Italy too. I looked at it, and despite the potential savings, settled on a UK boat.

 

[Jurgen]

yes Andy I am on the change again lol

Shawn, there's a really tidy Predator 63 in Ocean Village for £220k, recon they'd take under £200.

Buy that boat and skip out the next 3 boats you'll buy over the next 3 years lol

 

[mm1]

Make sure the correct amount of tax has been paid! The Italians have very inventive ways in not paying taxes!
Regards
MM1

 

[lanerboy]

I have been told to be careful about buying in Italy as lots of boats are on some sort of lease program and clear title is very hard to get

does anyone know much about this and how to go about finding out if a boat is on lease

cheers

 

[jfm]

I have been told to be careful about buying in Italy as lots of boats are on some sort of lease program and clear title is very hard to get

does anyone know much about this and how to go about finding out if a boat is on lease

cheers

Leasing is common in Italy but more so on larger boats. The VAT savings on leasing a smaller boat make it hardly worthwhile. Once the boat has been through 3-5 years of lease the VAT benefit is all done, so you are (I would expect but don't know) less likely to see leased boats over 5 years old

The title papers will show the existence of the lease. The boat will be owned by a bank. Don't be frightened of it; its only financing paperwork. You pay the outstanding balance to the bank if necessary, rather than pay it to the "vendor"

 

[lanerboy]

thanks for clearing that up John, also is there anything you can think of as to why I should not buy a vat paid boat from Italy

 

[MapisM]

I have been told to be careful about buying in Italy as lots of boats are on some sort of lease program and clear title is very hard to get

Now, that's a funny story, if I've ever heard one. Did you read it on the Daily Mail?
What jfm said is 100% correct - in a nutshell, no need to worry.

As an aside, I always wondered how in the UK you find it acceptable that upon purchase of a boat you have no bulletproof way of knowing if there's any creditor who could bite you after the purchase, because that sounds rather uncivilized, to my simple mind.

With an IT registered boat, that has zero chance to happen - regardless of whether the boat is leased or not.
Any property transfer must be notarized, and the same goes for loans.
Even if someone would have been able to get a loan on a boat without notarizing the transaction (which would never happen, because obviously banks know their job), as a buyer you would not be involved in any manner, because a non-notarized loan is not enforceable against third parties.

The only objection which could have reason to be raised against the IT system is that it is somewhat complicated, hence requiring a professional to handle the whole transaction, which of course adds a bit of costs.
Other than that (which is something you can consider in advance anyway, asking a quotation to whoever you will ask to handle the paperwork), I'd rather buy an IT than a UK registered boat any day of the week, from a "transaction peace of mind" viewpoint.

Btw, also what MM1 said (and I just noticed now) couldn't be more far from truth.
Not because there are no Italians interested in inventive ways for avoiding taxes, but because those who are, quite often fly to London, get in touch with some City consultant, establish a trust or whatever, and eventually become the proud (unofficial) owners of UK registered boats, used to cruise non-IT waters.
Believe me, tax avoidance is not going to happen, with any IT registered boat.

 

[lanerboy]

thanks MapisM that puts my mind at rest even more, so I can carry on looking at boats in Italy

If I did go down the router of buying from Italy would you be able to recommend anyone to over see the paper work for me???

 

[MapisM]

I'm afraid it's not so easy to give you a generic recommendation, because it depends on where exactly the boat is registered.
I mean, you might go with an agency based in Genoa also for a boat registered in Naples in theory, for for practical and cost reasons I would rather choose someone based wherever the boat is currently registered.
But if and when you will have a specific boat in your radar, I might make a phone call to a friend of mine which surely knows better than myself who is who in most IT main cities.

Btw, I didn't see before posting my previous reply your question to jfm re. any cons about buying boats "Italian VAT" paid.
Of course he knows much better than myself if you could risk any objection at your end from HMRC.
But fwiw, I would be very surprised if there would be any risk, because even with the leasing VAT rate, which is slightly reduced, any boat which paid the Italian VAT didn't benefit of any huge advantage - as opposed for instance to the Maltese VAT, which albeit perfectly legal, was obviously designed to attract foreign boaters, with the aim of "stealing" some VAT to other EU Countries...

 

[jfm]

I'm afraid it's not so easy to give you a generic recommendation, because it depends on where exactly the boat is registered.
I mean, you might go with an agency based in Genoa also for a boat registered in Naples in theory, for for practical and cost reasons I would rather choose someone based wherever the boat is currently registered.
But if and when you will have a specific boat in your radar, I might make a phone call to a friend of mine which surely knows better than myself who is who in most IT main cities.

Btw, I didn't see before posting my previous reply your question to jfm re. any cons about buying boats "Italian VAT" paid.
Of course he knows much better than myself if you could risk any objection at your end from HMRC.
But fwiw, I would be very surprised if there would be any risk, because even with the leasing VAT rate, which is slightly reduced, any boat which paid the Italian VAT didn't benefit of any huge advantage - as opposed for instance to the Maltese VAT, which albeit perfectly legal, was obviously designed to attract foreign boaters, with the aim of "stealing" some VAT to other EU Countries...

Yes indeed, if the boat is IT VAT paid, even with a (small) VAT reduction due to leasing, then it is VAT paid assuming no strange factors like exported outside EU and sold. This is perfectly legal and a somewhat reduced VAT rate has applied to leased boats in IT and Fr for well over 10 years, and in Malta and Cyprus more recently. It is a very well trodden path. Leasing amounts to a similar thing to buying a boat with some finance/loan, although during the lease the bank owns the boat. If you have a boat with this history, UK HMRC will not bother you at all Lanerboy. And as Mapis explains, the title system itself is more risk free than the UK system

You will get "worriers" when you come to sell the boat in the UK, and to deal with that you must get perfect paperwork when you buy the boat. I would insist on seeing the paperwork before contract and before handing over a deposit*. This puts more pressure on seller to produce the paperwork. If you merely agree "full clear title paperwork" or some such and do not see the paper work until after you have entered into contract, paid deposit, done your survey and are about to close the deal, you will often find the paperwork isn't that good. And then YOU are under pressure. Deal with this BEFORE contract while the SELLER is under pressure

*Of course this is not an IT related point. I'd do the same if buying in Uk or any other country

 

[MapisM]

I would insist on seeing the paperwork before contract and before handing over a deposit*.

Seconded 100%.
As I said, the registration/ownership transfer system as such is pretty solid, but if nothing else you can't rule out the possibility that the previous owner(s) was (were) not so kosher in keeping all the relevant papers - and this is a field where, unfortunately, formalities matter a lot.

Actually, if the owner and his broker can't produce all the necessary docs for any reason, you have also the option (courtesy of the notary-based system) to track the previous transaction(s) asking a notary to dig into their database, but that's an additional complexity which I don't think you want to deal with...
...unless you find your dream boat, that is!

Apropos, what sort of vessel are you looking for? Best of luck anyhow!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

thanks MapisM that puts my mind at rest even more, so I can carry on looking at boats in Italy

If I did go down the router of buying from Italy would you be able to recommend anyone to over see the paper work for me???

lanerboy, I recently bought a boat in Italy and although the one I bought was not under leasing, I did seriously consider buying another one which was. It seemed very simple to me. I was presented with a schedule of the remaining payments and, separately, a settlement figure to pay off the lease. I was given the option of either carrying on with the lease payments myself or settling it. As it happens, I thought that the interest rate was very high at 8% so I wouldn't have carried on with it and had I bought the boat, I just would have settled it outright. The only thing to say here is that if you buy a boat with leasing attached, settle the lease directly yourself. Don't rely on the broker or owner to do it. As for somebody to guide you through this process, try Ward & McKenzie http://www.ward-mckenzie.co.uk

 

[lanerboy]

thanks Deleted User very help full, only other thing I have stumbled across is transport, I am being told Italy is a nightmare to transport boats so I would be better off cruising to the south of France and loading it there. The thing is this seems a bit daunting to me and is making an Italian purchase even more less attractive I wonder if these things contribute to the boats I have seen being a fair chunk cheaper than in other countries

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

thanks Deleted User very help full, only other thing I have stumbled across is transport, I am being told Italy is a nightmare to transport boats so I would be better off cruising to the south of France and loading it there. The thing is this seems a bit daunting to me and is making an Italian purchase even more less attractive I wonder if these things contribute to the boats I have seen being a fair chunk cheaper than in other countries

Oh crikey, no, don't even think about transporting a boat overland in Italy. Transporting anything large by truck in Italy is a bureaucratic nightmare and is ludicrously expensive as a result. It's just yet another way that the Italians have chosen to make their economy uncompetitive. Where is the boat? If the boat is on the west coast of Italy, then probably best to make for La Rague in SoF which is a well known marina for dropping off and picking up boats or Port Napoleon further west. If the boat is on the Adriatic side, then Portoroz in Slovenia would be a good pick up point
Personally I would view a delivery trip to a different country as an opportunity for a holiday cruise in the Med, especially at this time of year! There will be plenty of experienced forumite boaters only too willing to help you make the trip
For advice on trucking, speak to these companies
http://www.petersandmay.com
http://www.vandewetering.nl/en/