Buyer Beware

[davedpc]

I thought this could only happen when you buy a boat. About 3 years ago my son and me bought a run down Diablo from a reputable car dealer after all the possible checks i.e HPI etc had been made. The car is now in nearly new condition and a Lambo Dealer who under valued it when bought now has revalued it more than double.65K. About a year ago the former owner (I think he had been inside] demanded the car back. It had been given to the car dealer to sell against debs accrued and He wants the former wreck back. To date litigation including Barristers has cost us nearly £8k. and it only went to court to be set down for trial yesterday. The old owner is going for us as we have the car. The dealer is not forthcoming and we may have to sue him in turn. This problem has turned into a mess as the owner first denied that he gave permission to sell the car,now saying He did not receive payment. Dave.

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[Micky]

Being an X car dealer i have experienced the pros and cons. It is a complicated case and will cost you for legal support. Esther Ransom was once involved with a case we had...lol, but we lost.

The car belongs to the owner, providing he can prove it was his, and the registration documents are NOT proof of ownership, so he needs proof like a bill of sale etc. At the worse you will have to give it back, in the original condition you purchased it, be careful he could sue for any damage the car has got, should he claim it was in perfect condition when he left it. You will then need to sue the car dealer to try and get your money back.. not a lot of chance here.

Owing to the dispute, neither you or he can sell the car until ownership is sorted out, the police have the right to take it and store it until the dispute has been resolved, if they suspect a crime has taken place, EG the guy reports it as stolen, which he must do.

There is always the old clause, purchased in good faith, that is handy if you paid the market price for it, but if you purchased it cheap, then it won't help very much.

HPI , safe guard against outstanding Hire purchase or write off vehicles and can help establish ownership, but if the vehicle had not been reported stolen it would not show up and you say the guy gave it to the dealer to sell, so it was not reported stolen. Oh dear, looks like you have a big fight on your hands and a very expensive one.

A point for anyone to look out for when buying a boat, car or anything else, does it belong to the seller??
Always check it out especially if it is being offered cheap.

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[Dave_Snelson]

What a terrible story. I do hope you get it sorted in your favour. However...my faith in the British judicial system is in no way sychronised with my hope.

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[PaulF]

An awful story. Can you with your experience tell us how we can establish that a dealer has good title, or indeed if he is selling it on behalf of a 3rd party. How does one find out if title is transfered, presumably this can only take place when monies have been actually paid to the owner?
I would expect a 'reputable dealer' to be offended if you asked him to prove title of a vehicle. yet this is exactly what would have been desired.

Minefield?

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[andy_wilson]

"the owner first denied that he gave permission to sell the car" - a reputable dealer would have a transfer form to cover this eventuality, has he?

"now saying He did not receive payment" - if the above is in order and individual has changed his tune, his fight is with the dealer for payment of any agreed value over and above the debt owed.

Sounds like you have a case against the dealer for costs and damages. If you are already in litigation I trust you have already been in touch with the SMMT or whatever trade organisation 'Reputable' motor delers belong to?


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[Micky]

Motor dealers do not have to register that they own a vehicle, but his bookwork should show it as stock in and stock out, even if he is selling it on behalf of a third party he would be doing it for a fee, hence Tax and Vat would be payable on the profits. My guess is he sold it and put the money in his pocket. did you pay Cash or Cheque?? have you got a sales invoice? Go to your local trading office also citizens advice, there not that good but it's free advice that could help you. Also is the dealer still trading??it's no good chasing a bankrupt dealer.



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[TwoStroke]

Having a chat with my dealers, if a car is on sale or return, they usually just show the vehicle on the forecourt and will exchange money with the original owner when they have a sale i.e. will buy the car in. The cheque being proof of ownership and legal title to sell the vehicle to the new owner.

Good luck with this.

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[Col]

Have you told Glen this is all going on?? What did he say??

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[davedpc]

Thanks for all advice and support. As you will appreaiate some of the best brains [ Bastards sorry I mean Barristers] are dealing with it, it has long passed the Citizens Advice stage. We had the car transported to Modena cars at our own expence before we bought it as it had a smashed dif. etc etc. TO have a written apraisal and valuation .We even had the car checked over by T.V. Police and they found a discrepancy with the log book. They took and inpounded the car until it was sorted. Fortunately we hve photos,and invoices for the 2years it has taken us on the rebuild. We also have all the relevent bill of purchase and cancelled cheques. One of my good friends was President of the SSMT. for several years and even He is at a loss to help. No ,as stated its going to be a long haul and I aint going to hold My breath. Dave.

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[PaulF]

Well Dave, I reckon that was one of the most sobering posts for a while.
I wish you justice, real justice and hope all the cards land your way up. Please let us know the outcome. Paul

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[MidlandsOnSea]

Dave,

Have you looked at your home contents insurance policy and your motor insurance policy? The home policies often include some provision for legal expenses and, since you are a defendant, you might find this at least gives you some scope to get your legal costs paid.

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[davedpc]

Yes Col its Gwyn who sold us the car thats the problem. Charles Ive tried all aspecs of secondary insurance but they dont like litigation. Dave.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by davedpc on 05/11/2004 08:39 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[ontheplane]

You can often buy 3rd Party legal expenses insurance (I know someone who did even whilst a claim was in progress) and as long as they think there is a "reasonable" chance of success they might well go for it....

"Good faith" is clearly one defence possibility

The other is that if you have spent out money improving the vehicle "in good faith" and have made a material improvement, then you may be able to force the prev owner to pay for those improvements - however I know the law can be an ass and you may end up seriously out of pocket. My deepest deepest sympathy.

Has this other character proved he DID have the original and good title to the vehicle and can he prove he did NOT give the dealer the right to sell it.

Also a very good point made about whether the dealer was still in business, as you would have a strong claim against him if he is.

<hr width=100% size=1>Why can't we work 2 days a week and boat the other 5????