broken tiller woes, suggestions please

[floebs]

Hello all,

I'm fairly new to the forum, a first time boat owner, and... I've just snapped my tiller!!

Manouvering in reverse and the tiller kicked right out of my hand... THWACKKK!! So... after the initial shock and oh my gawd!! I'm now wondering what options there are for repairing(?) replacing(?) the tiller, and the 'rudder block mount'. <-- i dont know what this part is called?

Piccies here. Not sure how deep the cracks on the rear transom-hung rudder block are yet!

The tiller, snapped off at the end of the block leaving about 6-7 inches.

Any suggestions, ideas, advice and wisdom for a newbie!
Thank you in advance

Btw, I'm in the water, if possible I'd prefer to leave her in if I can get away with repairs while afloat. She's a 27ft long keel, with transom hung rudder.

 

[Aeolus]

Not an expert but in your place I would look to have some steel bands made to permanently clamp above and below the socket on the rudder and make a new tiller, maybe from a piece of ash or hickory - both very strong and shock resistant timbers. Else you'll have to remake at least the rudder stock and possibly the whole rudder.

I very much doubt that even the best glue would suffice - the forces on the rudder stock are very substantial (as you have just discovered).

You could shorten the tiller and put a hinge or joint in but that will weaken it risking a future crisis, maybe in more dangerous circumstances.

 

[Tranona]

New tiller time! You might be able to use an axe handle, which will be much stronger and more resilient than the mahogany your current one is made of. Oak is also used and you may be able to get a grown piece that you could shape. It is common to build tillers out of laminated strips alternatiing between mahogany and Douglas Fir. These look good and are generally stronger than solid mahogany. Much will depend on how good you are with woodworking!

The crack in the rudder head is caused mainly by the glue line failing. You should be able to clean the faces, pour some thickened epoxy down the gap and clamp it together while it cures.

 

[Pye_End]

if you want one made for you then these people might be able to help:

http://www.tonymackillican.co.uk/index.htm

 

[sailorman]

New tiller time! You might be able to use an axe handle, which will be much stronger and more resilient than the mahogany your current one is made of. Oak is also used and you may be able to get a grown piece that you could shape. It is common to build tillers out of laminated strips alternatiing between mahogany and Douglas Fir. These look good and are generally stronger than solid mahogany. Much will depend on how good you are with woodworking!

The crack in the rudder head is caused mainly by the glue line failing. You should be able to clean the faces, pour some thickened epoxy down the gap and clamp it together while it cures.

looks like "Short" grain @ the break as well, it was waiting to happen

 

[Tranona]

looks like "Short" grain @ the break as well, it was waiting to happen

Yes, amazing it lasted so long. Probably because it was a tight fit and the boat is light on the helm - but when thecheek opened up it would have put a shock load on the tiller.

Remains will look nice over the mantlepiece instead of a boring head of antlers.

 

[Spuddy]

Can't really tell from the pics but tiller failure might be from combination of short grain and a bit of rot. I made a repacement tiller from a section of ash - the saw-mill let me delve around until I found a bit where the grain followed the curve of the tiller. As has been said, ash or hickory absorb shock well ( hence their use for hammer handles) and are sufficiently durable for use above decks.
I've got the skills to do a laminated one but I don't like the dark/light effect and also didn't want to spend the time setting up formers etc for a one off.
I'd have reservations about adhesive alone putting the split in the rudder top back to serviceable. The trouble is that wet and dirt get in there and affect the integrity of a glue-line. The suggestion to get some stainless reinforcing bands fabricated sounds good to me. Any epoxy/balcotan etc would seal the crack and help prevent rot in future.

 

[tillergirl]

Oh dear. This is not time for a new tiller! Had it happen to me although not in that way. You simply need a new piece scarfed onto the tiller. Pretty simple for any amateur woodworker and a doodle for a professional. On the rudder, I agree with Aeolus' last comment - ultimately for a full and lasting repair (as opposed to something that will last a couple of years) you are looking at a remake by which I mean new cheeks. I am currently putting new cheeks on my rudder as it became clear that that the thickened epoxy cure tried several years earlier doesn't work. Now I have the cheeks off the rudder, the reason why is obvious. The epoxy is there nicely cured. But the timber inside the crack is damp enough so the epoxy does not adhere properly. The reality is that you cannot get the timber inside the crack to dry sufficiently unless you take it apart. Because I didn't take it apart when I first had the problem, trying the 'cure' means that saving the old cheeks is too late (it may always have been too late). The blade of my rudder is fine and doesn't need replacing; it is currently drying; I will leave it until I am absolutely sure.

 

[DanTribe]

I agree with the others, it was waiting to happen, sounds like it went in a convenient situation. It was made from a suspect bit of timber, what a joiner friend would call a "crozzly" grain.
Suggest you have practice go at making one with a cheaper timber, keep that as a spare, then make a pukka version. Ash is a good timber for tillers.
If 'twer my boat I would have a go at opening up the splits in the rudder head and pouring in epoxy, as suggested, except I think I wouldn't thicken it, keep it nice and runny. Perhaps even drill some small transverse holes to flood & spread the load?
This all assumes that you can get it dry and warm?

 

[Amulet]

Like everyone says - a pretty crappy bit of wood to make a tiller from! Wrong wood and short grain.

Ash is the traditional material, being more springy and less breakable than oak, which is also usable. If you were close I'd easily dig you up a bit from the stack of useful bits in my workshop.

NB - Ash is not durable and will rot if not coated with varnish/paint. I discovered this when mine snapped off in my hand and I sailed up the beach. (It had done 40 years service, but had rotted inside the rudder stock.)

Given that it's straight, the only reason to laminate it is to make it look poncy. A solid lump of ash will be stronger.

The cracks in your rudder stock don't look new to me, so maybe you have a need to strengthen that, as has been suggested. The picture shows how this is done on my boat with a couple of bolted through galvanised straps. It also shows the nice solid ash new tiller.

 

[Fascadale]

A number of years ago, before I owned the boat, the five foot laminated tiller on my MAB broke. The previous owned had it copied in stainless steel and very fine it is too.

No varnishing, unbreakable, often admired

 

[Boo2]

A number of years ago, before I owned the boat, the five foot laminated tiller on my MAB broke. The previous owned had it copied in stainless steel and very fine it is too.

No varnishing, unbreakable, often admired

It does look very stylish but isn't it a little heavy ?

Boo2

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Y
Remains will look nice over the mantlepiece instead of a boring head of antlers.

I like it !

You could also tell people that it happened round Portland Bill in a force 9.

Possibly also in December.

I think the OP should have a prize for the pictures and great presentation.

 

[Fascadale]

It does look very stylish but isn't it a little heavy ?

Boo2

I didn't realise how heavy it was until I took it off the rudder. A heavy one handed carry.

 

[floebs]

I would look to have some steel bands made to permanently clamp above and below the socket on the rudder and make a new tiller, maybe from a piece of ash or hickory - both very strong and shock resistant timbers.

I very much doubt that even the best glue would suffice - the forces on the rudder stock are very substantial (as you have just discovered).

Aeolus, the steel bands sound like the way to go, I had thought that I might be able to pour epoxy down the cracks after pre-drilling a couple of horizontal screw holes through the corner piece and into the main bock - to tighten the corner piece back on to the main block - then leave it to harden. But the steel collar sounds a much more fitting repair!! Thanks

New tiller time! You might be able to use an axe handle, which will be much stronger and more resilient than the mahogany your current one is made of. Oak is also used and you may be able to get a grown piece that you could shape. It is common to build tillers out of laminated strips alternatiing between mahogany and Douglas Fir. These look good and are generally stronger than solid mahogany. Much will depend on how good you are with woodworking!

Tranona, I do like the look of the stripey ones, but that might be a bit too posh for my little boat!! A solid piece of oak is more in keeping with her character. I'll know more about how good my woodworking skills are in a couple of weeks!!!

if you want one made for you then these people might be able to help:
http://www.tonymackillican.co.uk/index.htm

Pye_End, oh I can only dream!! But thank you for the link.

looks like "Short" grain @ the break as well, it was waiting to happen

Sailorman, scary to think that it was waiting to happen, glad it did, when it did then! yikes!

Remains will look nice over the mantlepiece instead of a boring head of antlers.

Hah! brilliant, think i might just have to do that!!

I made a repacement tiller from a section of ash - the saw-mill let me delve around until I found a bit where the grain followed the curve of the tiller. As has been said, ash or hickory absorb shock well ( hence their use for hammer handles) and are sufficiently durable for use above decks. I'd have reservations about adhesive alone putting the split in the rudder top back to serviceable. Any epoxy/balcotan etc would seal the crack and help prevent rot in future.

Spuddy, good to know about the grain needing to follow the tiller curve - I'm learning new stuff every day!

Using the epoxy to simply seal the joins against future rot is a good idea - I'm thinking about heat gunning/paint stripping off the exterior paint to check for other cracks that might be under the paint layer, also, this might help let it dry out a bit too(?) - as mentioned by other posters as something to consider.

Thanks again, peoples input on here is astounding!! And for a newbie, just learning the ropes, all these suggestions are sooo helpful!

 

[floebs]

Oh dear. This is not time for a new tiller! Had it happen to me although not in that way. You simply need a new piece scarfed onto the tiller. Pretty simple for any amateur woodworker and a doodle for a professional. On the rudder, I agree with Aeolus' last comment - ultimately for a full and lasting repair (as opposed to something that will last a couple of years) you are looking at a remake by which I mean new cheeks. I am currently putting new cheeks on my rudder as it became clear that that the thickened epoxy cure tried several years earlier doesn't work. Now I have the cheeks off the rudder, the reason why is obvious. The epoxy is there nicely cured. But the timber inside the crack is damp enough so the epoxy does not adhere properly. The reality is that you cannot get the timber inside the crack to dry sufficiently unless you take it apart. Because I didn't take it apart when I first had the problem, trying the 'cure' means that saving the old cheeks is too late (it may always have been too late). The blade of my rudder is fine and doesn't need replacing; it is currently drying; I will leave it until I am absolutely sure.

Hi tillergirl, this is interesting! So, you think that I could 'scarf' <-- had to look that up! the two pieces back together??? and it will have the strength to steer a 3 ton boat? If this is possible, would I need to taper this extra piece all the way back up the tiller length?

When you talk about 'cheeks' is this the cheek of the rudder? Do you mean the block sections either side of the tiller mounting - essentially the the two outer thirds of the block? I wasnt sure if it was one soild block with the tiller square hole cut out - like a giant square donut! Or if it was made by sandwiching three seperate pieces together - if the latter, you think I might need to seperate them fully and remake the whole block again to re-inforce it enough for safe future steerage? Holy schmolly! thats a much bigger job than I was hoping for!

But I do see what you mean about being able to dry out the internal wood sections sufficiently! Clearly I need one of those crazy hair net hairdryer things from the fifties!!!!

 

[PabloPicasso]

I agree with all that sound advice. New tiller and repair rudder.

 

[floebs]

Suggest you have practice go at making one with a cheaper timber, keep that as a spare, then make a pukka version. Ash is a good timber for tillers. If 'twer my boat I would have a go at opening up the splits in the rudder head and pouring in epoxy, as suggested, except I think I wouldn't thicken it, keep it nice and runny. Perhaps even drill some small transverse holes to flood & spread the load? This all assumes that you can get it dry and warm?

DanTribe, Yes, I dont even want to think about what could have happened if I were half way across the Irish Sea!!!! Opening up, and pouring in seems to be the consensus - at least to seal and prevent further rot - the lateral drill holes are a good idea too.

Any tips, ideas for ways to dry out the wood a little, that might be possible by hanging over the stern?

Ash is the traditional material, being more springy and less breakable than oak, which is also usable. If you were close I'd easily dig you up a bit from the stack of useful bits in my workshop.

NB - Ash is not durable and will rot if not coated with varnish/paint. I discovered this when mine snapped off in my hand and I sailed up the beach. (It had done 40 years service, but had rotted inside the rudder stock.)

Given that it's straight, the only reason to laminate it is to make it look poncy. A solid lump of ash will be stronger.

The cracks in your rudder stock don't look new to me, so maybe you have a need to strengthen that, as has been suggested. The picture shows how this is done on my boat with a couple of bolted through galvanised straps. It also shows the nice solid ash new tiller.

Amulet, I might take you up on this!!! A couple of hours drive seems tiny in comparison to talking to someone with years of boat building experience and wisdom! Good to know about protecting Ash too!! Thanks.

I wondered if galvanised/stainless steel straps might be a posibility, rather than a full s/s collar. I like the look of yours, and seeing how you've tackled it, makes me think something similar might be the way to go! You make it all look so simple and beautiful!!

A number of years ago, before I owned the boat, the five foot laminated tiller on my MAB broke. The previous owned had it copied in stainless steel and very fine it is too.
No varnishing, unbreakable, often admired

Wow, Fascadale, looks beautiful, I do like the feel of a traditional wood tiller tho, call me old fashioned! Is it solid steel???

You could also tell people that it happened round Portland Bill in a force 9. Possibly also in December.
I think the OP should have a prize for the pictures and great presentation.

Haha, oh I'm sure my story will grow and grow, you lot will always know the real truth tho!!

Thanks LONG_KEELER, my thinking is, if its worth sharing, its got to at least be easy to access, at best be pretty to look at! Or is that just 'boaty sarcasm' I still need to learn to identify!!

 

[tillergirl]

Hi tillergirl, this is interesting! So, you think that I could 'scarf' <-- had to look that up! the two pieces back together??? and it will have the strength to steer a 3 ton boat? If this is possible, would I need to taper this extra piece all the way back up the tiller length?

When you talk about 'cheeks' is this the cheek of the rudder? Do you mean the block sections either side of the tiller mounting - essentially the the two outer thirds of the block? I wasnt sure if it was one soild block with the tiller square hole cut out - like a giant square donut! Or if it was made by sandwiching three seperate pieces together - if the latter, you think I might need to seperate them fully and remake the whole block again to re-inforce it enough for safe future steerage? Holy schmolly! thats a much bigger job than I was hoping for!

But I do see what you mean about being able to dry out the internal wood sections sufficiently! Clearly I need one of those crazy hair net hairdryer things from the fifties!!!!

No you can't scarf the two pieces back together. You need to scarf a new 'end' piece to the old long piece. I have an ash section scarfed to my tiller and it copes with 8 tons of boat!

Your rudder looks to be made exactly like mine. Can't be positive because the photos only show the top but it can't be one solid piece otherwise how was the top fitting put in place? But I think you have a blade which goes from the bottom fitting to the tiller, two 'cheeks' which go either side of the blade, probably starting half way up the blade and finishing above the blade. An infill piece sits between the two cheeks above the slot for the tiller. 'Safe for future steerage'? I am sure you can do things like getting epoxy in there and applying a steel band as have been suggested. Or you could put a nice stainless plate either side and through bolt it. How many years would those last? Who knows. You have bust the rudder at it's most vulnerable part and I just think that deserves a permanent solution. Not knowing the dimensions, it difficult to thinks through costs but I suspect a stainless steel band is not going to be cheap and it needs to made with some accuracy. Removing two bits of wood from either side of the rudder - indeed you might get away with just one but the starboard side is sprung by the looks of it - letting the blade thoroughly dry and then epoxying on some new ones might not be that difficult.

I'll let you know!

 

[floebs]

No you can't scarf the two pieces back together. You need to scarf a new 'end' piece to the old long piece. I have an ash section scarfed to my tiller and it copes with 8 tons of boat!

Your rudder looks to be made exactly like mine. Can't be positive because the photos only show the top but it can't be one solid piece otherwise how was the top fitting put in place? But I think you have a blade which goes from the bottom fitting to the tiller, two 'cheeks' which go either side of the blade, probably starting half way up the blade and finishing above the blade. An infill piece sits between the two cheeks above the slot for the tiller. 'Safe for future steerage'? I am sure you can do things like getting epoxy in there and applying a steel band as have been suggested. Or you could put a nice stainless plate either side and through bolt it. How many years would those last? Who knows. You have bust the rudder at it's most vulnerable part and I just think that deserves a permanent solution. Not knowing the dimensions, it difficult to thinks through costs but I suspect a stainless steel band is not going to be cheap and it needs to made with some accuracy. Removing two bits of wood from either side of the rudder - indeed you might get away with just one but the starboard side is sprung by the looks of it - letting the blade thoroughly dry and then epoxying on some new ones might not be that difficult.

Ahh, I see! I was trying to work out how I might possibly 'graft' these two existing tiller pieces back together!!

Here's a couple more pics - from starboard, from port - both still only showing above waterline though. The actual dimensions of the wooden block (pictured above) are 8" x 6 1/2" - dont know the depth.

To be honest, I have only had the boat two months - yes, I broke her already!! - so havent ever seen the full rudder (below waterline). She's similar to this rudder design though.

Thank you very much for taking the time to give such a detailed description, I now understand a lot more about how my actual rudder is constructed, and can see where the 'cheeks' would be and how all that comes together!!

Yes, I agree about only doing a repair once, and doing a permanent job - I usually advocate this approach - rather than a 'make do' fix, although, at the moment, I cant afford to have her lifted out, and I dont own a cradle for storage during a full rudder overhaul/dry out, so I'm going to have to try the various other suggestions first. If it is totally trashed, then yes, I agree, looking at a much more permanent solution will most definitely be called for.

Thanks again, it realy is helpful learning about all the various options!