bedouin
Well-Known Member
I imagine that the vast majority of fishing boats are single engined
Brisbane Star sailing boat towed back to the solent
- Thread starter Barr Avel
- Start date
duncan
Well-Known Member
a lot do - and a lot don't........... as bedoin highlights fishing boats tend to be single engined - even the ocean going ones.
boguing
Well-Known Member
Having taken a (coincidentally - a sailing school) yacht in tow in that area, in fog, after it had run out of fuel, I can say that he did exactly the right thing. The (now very famous) skipper saw the bridge wing of a ship pass so nearly above him that "I could have lobbed this ferkin apple core up onto it".
tcm
...
ooh, plastic bag in the inlet, rope round the prop, the list is endless.
ColinHuggins
N/A
While agreeing with (nearly) everything posted so far - there's something not quite right here.
I've frequently motored back in light winds (notice 'back' cos more pressure to get home at the end of a cruise or charter) but the poor vis might just have persuaded me to stay put and change crew where I was, as I would in a N gale.
Then there's the thought that a professional skipper should be more qualified to mend the clockwork than myself. And a sailing school could afford a tow more readily too. So did the CG offer that option before calling out the lifeboat?
C'mon, you must have heard the wrangling going on as the CG pressurizes a yottie to accept a commercial pluck out of danger. Was there a call to other craft in the vicinity? Recently we had a club member immobilised halfway back with a net round the prop and the CG kept banging on until another yacht turned up to help.
Isn't there an insiduous implication that sailing school boats are professionals, and they all stick together = receive favourable treatment.
Anyone else share my reservations about this whole scenario?
I've frequently motored back in light winds (notice 'back' cos more pressure to get home at the end of a cruise or charter) but the poor vis might just have persuaded me to stay put and change crew where I was, as I would in a N gale.
Then there's the thought that a professional skipper should be more qualified to mend the clockwork than myself. And a sailing school could afford a tow more readily too. So did the CG offer that option before calling out the lifeboat?
C'mon, you must have heard the wrangling going on as the CG pressurizes a yottie to accept a commercial pluck out of danger. Was there a call to other craft in the vicinity? Recently we had a club member immobilised halfway back with a net round the prop and the CG kept banging on until another yacht turned up to help.
Isn't there an insiduous implication that sailing school boats are professionals, and they all stick together = receive favourable treatment.
Anyone else share my reservations about this whole scenario?
DeeGee
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the PanPan was entirely justified.
As an aside, am I right in thinking that had they been in French waters they would have been charged by the SNSM for the tow?
[/ QUOTE ]
As one who has had his engine (catastrophically, Mirelle) fail, with no wind, I issued a (not PP) call to Dover CG, to let them know, even though I was only near the dover tss. By the time I had the rubber duck lashed alongside and was making 3 (rpt 3)kts back towards Dover - I was advised RNLI boat coming to take me in tow, like it or not ("let's just say we won't let you enter the harbour, sir !!"). They do NOT like saily boats hanging around the channel with no wind and apparently no engines.
And you are wrong - the French do NOT charge under normal circs. Although, unlike RNLI, if someone is taking the p by navigating with an AA map or such, they can make a charge.
I agree that the PanPan was entirely justified.
As an aside, am I right in thinking that had they been in French waters they would have been charged by the SNSM for the tow?
[/ QUOTE ]
As one who has had his engine (catastrophically, Mirelle) fail, with no wind, I issued a (not PP) call to Dover CG, to let them know, even though I was only near the dover tss. By the time I had the rubber duck lashed alongside and was making 3 (rpt 3)kts back towards Dover - I was advised RNLI boat coming to take me in tow, like it or not ("let's just say we won't let you enter the harbour, sir !!"). They do NOT like saily boats hanging around the channel with no wind and apparently no engines.
And you are wrong - the French do NOT charge under normal circs. Although, unlike RNLI, if someone is taking the p by navigating with an AA map or such, they can make a charge.
nigelhudson
Well-Known Member
I was in a similar position earlier this year albeit not in mid-Channel. The gearbox drive sheared and there wasn't a hope of sailing to a port of refuge as the wind died. Night was falling and there was not another boat in the area. I called Solent CG on ch67 and asked for advice reasoning that they are the experts. They launched the local ILB to tow us in.
I felt a little sheepish the time about needing the tow in but I thought it through. We had to anchor as we were starting to drift towards the shallows. If we had hung around at anchor overnight there was no certainty that we would have had favourable winds later to allow us to sail close to a port of refuge. None of the ports close at hand were really safe for sailing into due to narrow channels, strong tides or ship traffic so we would have needed a tow for the last stage. The final clincher for me was that we had a relatively simple tow into port in favourable conditions. If we had waited until the situation warranted a pan-pan or mayday then it would have made life more difficult for the ILB and I don't think that I should make the lifeboat crews' lives any more difficult (or hazardous) than necessary.
I expect that other forumites might have made a different decision but I always err on the side of caution.
I felt a little sheepish the time about needing the tow in but I thought it through. We had to anchor as we were starting to drift towards the shallows. If we had hung around at anchor overnight there was no certainty that we would have had favourable winds later to allow us to sail close to a port of refuge. None of the ports close at hand were really safe for sailing into due to narrow channels, strong tides or ship traffic so we would have needed a tow for the last stage. The final clincher for me was that we had a relatively simple tow into port in favourable conditions. If we had waited until the situation warranted a pan-pan or mayday then it would have made life more difficult for the ILB and I don't think that I should make the lifeboat crews' lives any more difficult (or hazardous) than necessary.
I expect that other forumites might have made a different decision but I always err on the side of caution.
tome
Well-Known Member
Where exactly were you?
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
You also have to consider the consequences if the skipper and the CG had taken no action and the yacht had been run down losing all hands.
What would people then say about the decision making of skipper / CG?
CG aims to get people out of danger before a situation develops, and rightly so as it will ultimately save lives.
What would people then say about the decision making of skipper / CG?
CG aims to get people out of danger before a situation develops, and rightly so as it will ultimately save lives.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
like tome, would like to know where you were.
Seastart provide an excellent 'breakdown' service in coastal waters, admittedly not in mid-channel, by providing help over the phone, sending an engineer, or giving a tow. Saves the embarrassment of dealing with RNLI and provides immedieate expertise so far as possible.
I have paid my £130 each year, and used their help a couple of times on our knackered old engine, even only to jump start due to flat battery while still in the marina!
Seastart provide an excellent 'breakdown' service in coastal waters, admittedly not in mid-channel, by providing help over the phone, sending an engineer, or giving a tow. Saves the embarrassment of dealing with RNLI and provides immedieate expertise so far as possible.
I have paid my £130 each year, and used their help a couple of times on our knackered old engine, even only to jump start due to flat battery while still in the marina!
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Sadly Seastart don't cover the East coast yet.....
rhinorhino
Well-Known Member
French do charge...
DeeGee
Well-Known Member
Well, they SAY they don't, and the three cases I know of where the yacht was assisted or towed in, no charge was made or mentioned. The coxwain of the Lifeboat said that they can and do make a charge when an someone is being irresponsible, and it is very rare. Perhaps your knowledge of the matter is based on some irresponsible behaviour.... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Woodentop
Well-Known Member
It Was My Decision And This What I Did
It was my call and this is why I did what I did;
I am a relatively junior Coastguard Watch Officer at Portland working that night as the SMC under the supervision of a very experienced Watch Manager.
Facts.
1. The yacht was a Bavaria 37 with 6 persons on board which had lost the use of their engine. Details of the Brisbane Star and the owner are here;
http://www.commodore-yachting.com/Bavria37.htm
2. The yacht was crewed by an experienced RYA Cruising Instructor and a group described to me by the owner as an experienced charter group known to him, who were taking a trip to gain more miles and learn. From our conversation I would asses them as being above Day Skipper but gaining miles for the next level. (The above is probably a breach of confidence and a breach of the Data Protection Act).
3. The yacht reported that they were between the shipping lanes leading to the Off Casquets Traffic Separation Scheme and were "Not Under Command".
4. On scene weather was very light or minimal winds. The tide was on the turn and about to set NE strongly. They reported they did not have sufficient wind to make way or take avoiding action.
5. Brisbane Star reported that visibility was decreasing and reported mist reducing visibility to 500 metres. They did not have radar.
6. Mist or fog was forecast. It was dark.
Concerns
1. They were like a hedgehog on the M25, in the fog, with no way of moving to avoid collision.
2. Ouzo has left HMCG very mindful of collisions between yachts and ships.
3. I believed that were was a high risk of the yacht being run down with the subsequent loss of life and high expenditure of SAR assets time and money in collecting the bodies.
Decisions
1. The yacht was equidistant (as near as dammit) from Weymouth, Swanage, Yarmouth and Alderney. When max speed of the lifeboats was considered, Alderney won.
2. A call was made to all ships in the area to assist the Brisbane Star. Only the sail training vessel Queen Galadriel answered and diverted from her course to assist.
(Who were the others who kept quiet but could have helped ?)
3. I (not HMCG, not "some one" but ME) took the decision to request the launch of a lifeboat to tow the yacht clear of the traffic lanes.
4. In the event the Queen Galadriel and Alderney lifeboat arrived at the same instant. QG could have towed the yacht clear but I would never "stand down" an offer of help until the casualty was actually assisted. I w ould have looked damn foolish if the lifeboat broke down on the way after we had told QG not bother.
5. The yacht was towed to Alderney (where the closest lifeboat came from).
Opinions
1. Speaking as an RYA OYM Instructor I have to say that loss of the secondary propulsion system is not grounds for distress.
2. Being becalmed in the Channel traffic zone in fog is grounds for involuntary self defecation.
3. Towing them out was cheaper than looking for the bodies.
Now, do any of you armchair pundits want to come back at me ?
(All of the above is probably a breach of confidence and breach of the Data Protection Act but it is stated in "good faith" to slap down those shot heads who never go to sea and never have to make these calls.)
It was my call and this is why I did what I did;
I am a relatively junior Coastguard Watch Officer at Portland working that night as the SMC under the supervision of a very experienced Watch Manager.
Facts.
1. The yacht was a Bavaria 37 with 6 persons on board which had lost the use of their engine. Details of the Brisbane Star and the owner are here;
http://www.commodore-yachting.com/Bavria37.htm
2. The yacht was crewed by an experienced RYA Cruising Instructor and a group described to me by the owner as an experienced charter group known to him, who were taking a trip to gain more miles and learn. From our conversation I would asses them as being above Day Skipper but gaining miles for the next level. (The above is probably a breach of confidence and a breach of the Data Protection Act).
3. The yacht reported that they were between the shipping lanes leading to the Off Casquets Traffic Separation Scheme and were "Not Under Command".
4. On scene weather was very light or minimal winds. The tide was on the turn and about to set NE strongly. They reported they did not have sufficient wind to make way or take avoiding action.
5. Brisbane Star reported that visibility was decreasing and reported mist reducing visibility to 500 metres. They did not have radar.
6. Mist or fog was forecast. It was dark.
Concerns
1. They were like a hedgehog on the M25, in the fog, with no way of moving to avoid collision.
2. Ouzo has left HMCG very mindful of collisions between yachts and ships.
3. I believed that were was a high risk of the yacht being run down with the subsequent loss of life and high expenditure of SAR assets time and money in collecting the bodies.
Decisions
1. The yacht was equidistant (as near as dammit) from Weymouth, Swanage, Yarmouth and Alderney. When max speed of the lifeboats was considered, Alderney won.
2. A call was made to all ships in the area to assist the Brisbane Star. Only the sail training vessel Queen Galadriel answered and diverted from her course to assist.
(Who were the others who kept quiet but could have helped ?)
3. I (not HMCG, not "some one" but ME) took the decision to request the launch of a lifeboat to tow the yacht clear of the traffic lanes.
4. In the event the Queen Galadriel and Alderney lifeboat arrived at the same instant. QG could have towed the yacht clear but I would never "stand down" an offer of help until the casualty was actually assisted. I w ould have looked damn foolish if the lifeboat broke down on the way after we had told QG not bother.
5. The yacht was towed to Alderney (where the closest lifeboat came from).
Opinions
1. Speaking as an RYA OYM Instructor I have to say that loss of the secondary propulsion system is not grounds for distress.
2. Being becalmed in the Channel traffic zone in fog is grounds for involuntary self defecation.
3. Towing them out was cheaper than looking for the bodies.
Now, do any of you armchair pundits want to come back at me ?
(All of the above is probably a breach of confidence and breach of the Data Protection Act but it is stated in "good faith" to slap down those shot heads who never go to sea and never have to make these calls.)
Woodentop
Well-Known Member
In French Waters
I spoke to Jobourg, it was slap on the border.
They had a couple of jobs on, we were quiet, so it seemed logical for us to take it.
I spoke to Jobourg, it was slap on the border.
They had a couple of jobs on, we were quiet, so it seemed logical for us to take it.
Woodentop
Well-Known Member
Re: Inaccurate reporting...
[ QUOTE ]
...gets my goat.
"The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) praised the actions of the skipper.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did not praise the actions of the skipper.
I said it was understandable that he had gone to PAN (Fog,TSS, etc..)
(quote in press release attributed to my boss)
[ QUOTE ]
...gets my goat.
"The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) praised the actions of the skipper.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did not praise the actions of the skipper.
I said it was understandable that he had gone to PAN (Fog,TSS, etc..)
(quote in press release attributed to my boss)
rallyveteran
Well-Known Member
Re: It Was My Decision And This What I Did
This page shows the weather observations from Channel Light Vessel, admittedly some 20 miles away at the other end of the Casquets TSS
While the graph shows a lull during the afternoon of Tuesday, the wind picked up at 6 pm to around 10 knots, and stayed around that level all night.
I assume the wind at the scene of the Brisbane Star stayed below this level until after the lifeboat reached them, otherwise they would surely have been able to sail out of trouble.
Rallyveteran
This page shows the weather observations from Channel Light Vessel, admittedly some 20 miles away at the other end of the Casquets TSS
While the graph shows a lull during the afternoon of Tuesday, the wind picked up at 6 pm to around 10 knots, and stayed around that level all night.
I assume the wind at the scene of the Brisbane Star stayed below this level until after the lifeboat reached them, otherwise they would surely have been able to sail out of trouble.
Rallyveteran
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Re: It Was My Decision And This What I Did
Sounds like the right call to me, by both of you.
Do you know what was so terminal about the engine problem?
Sounds like the right call to me, by both of you.
Do you know what was so terminal about the engine problem?
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
Re: It Was My Decision And This What I Did
Thanks for the head's up, FWIW it seemed like a no brainer of a decision to me, as you say a tow is a bloody sight less painful (in all respects) than looking for bodies. There but for the grace of god, etc.
Thanks for the head's up, FWIW it seemed like a no brainer of a decision to me, as you say a tow is a bloody sight less painful (in all respects) than looking for bodies. There but for the grace of god, etc.
graham
Well-Known Member
Re: It Was My Decision And This What I Did
Unlike the coastguard officer on duty at the time ,the rest of us can all pass judgement from the comfort of our homes offices etc but whatever conclusion we come to will not be scrutinized in the coroners court should it all go belly up.
For what its worth I believe you had no other option.
No engine ,poor vis,nil or light winds in a heavy shipping area (TSS or not isnt really important in this case).
As I said in my earlier post in this thread ,I hope that in the same position as the skipper I would be man enough to ask for help instead of gambling with my crews lifes .
Unlike the coastguard officer on duty at the time ,the rest of us can all pass judgement from the comfort of our homes offices etc but whatever conclusion we come to will not be scrutinized in the coroners court should it all go belly up.
For what its worth I believe you had no other option.
No engine ,poor vis,nil or light winds in a heavy shipping area (TSS or not isnt really important in this case).
As I said in my earlier post in this thread ,I hope that in the same position as the skipper I would be man enough to ask for help instead of gambling with my crews lifes .