Bowline, or Figure of Eight knot?

[bilbobaggins]

Re: \'Unnecessarily acidic replies\'

My dear JohnBuch, please do not continue to find personal offence where an observation-in-general was offered. You are as welcome here as I am - and probably more so.

You are perfectly entitled to use whatever takes your fancy to attach yourself to your climbing rope - "twice round the deck, once round 'is neck, and up 'is hearse for a stopper" - and argue 'til the cows come home that you know better than everyone else in the room about the merits of X versus Y. That is a time-honoured and gentle pastime, much beloved of football fans, political pundits, anchor enthusiasts and forum lurkers on 'ere.

However, that has little to do with the 'facts, logic and reason' of the topic in question. Should you seriously wish to challenge the work of the climber/engineer/physicists at the NEL who opened a new chapter of safety for those worldwide who work with ropes and cables, then you are at liberty so to do. The way is clear: do your research, publish your paper, and expose your conclusions to peer review. But you'll find the world of eng-academia a good deal more savage and intolerant than the 'ould dossers' on here, with a lot more 'blood on the carpet'.

This is one of the few places on the planet where unsubstantiated opinion gets house room. The price of that is banter.... some of it even gentle.

As for falling off bits of Llanberis countryside in 1968, the ever-perceptive Jimi rightly spotted that as self-deprecation. Although I did finish the lead.....

No-one on 'ere takes me too seriously - not even me! Feel free to extract the urea. Enjoi your day.....

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[mithril]

I always found bowlines came undone in stretchy climbing rope but fig 8's never did.

 

[johnkeith]

Bilbo,
I think we are just coming at this from a different standpoint - I don't for a minute dispute your lab. figures.It's just that there are so many other factors involved in an outdoor climbing/ sailing situation that the theoretical difference in strength between two knots in a laboratory situation is only a small part of an infinite number of factors which could lead to death and destruction. I think it is this which is recognised in Pete Hill and Stuart Johnston's "Mountain Training Book" where they recommend the re-threaded figure of eight but also describe how best to secure a bowline for those who choose to use it. Good old British pragmatism.
In mountain and sailing situations it's often better to come up with a fast imperfect solution than a slow perfect one, and for me the bowline is a much faster knot to tie than a fig. of eight (rethreaded). In the extra time it took me to stand still and complete a figure of eight a rock could have hit me or a breaking wave could have slammed me on to the deck when otherwise I would be safely started on my ascent with my poor old stigmatised, bowline.
Should also have mentioned that a bowline will use less rope to tie on to so it could just make the difference between reaching a good belay on a long winter pitch and grovelling about in the snow for a precarious ice-axe belay.

Finally, I think your last reply was, in part, kindly intended to mollify- if so, thanks: if not please leave me content in my ignorance.


As some French bloke once said:
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."