Bowline knot

FlyingDutchman

FlyingDutchman

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Is a bowline knot reliable for permanent use?

I want to make mooring lines at the correct length for my pontoon but I don't want to splice in a loop since I can not splice and I don't want to cut the lines to length.
I now use cleat hitches, but somehow I never really trust this since it looks so simple that it can not be safe (or am I being paranoid?).
 
Hope so, its how all my mooring ropes are secured, again I'm not a splicer by nature and being braided splicing isn't really an option. I ought to make a soft eye in the approved manner but I'm idle:-)

I gather that the tail should be as long as the circumference of the loop for safety .
 
Seems Ok with us - but you just have to remember that knots weaken the line, so use one that has enough guts in it.

And you could usefully run the rope round the base of the cleat twice (or ring or whatever) to stop it chafeing.
 
[ QUOTE ]
And you could usefully run the rope round the base of the cleat twice (or ring or whatever) to stop it chafeing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This I don't understand. Do you mean around the cleat on the boat or the ring on the pontoon?
 
Yes - in fact the bowline is one of the worst. I think it cuts the strength of the rope by half ?
Once you have done a splice, you will find them dead easy.
Ken
 
If you don't want to get the loop undone again (at least not easily) then a double overhand knot or a double figure of eight is the best bet. Figure of eight is the stronger knot and comes undone more easily but assuming you're using line in good condition and of a suitable size then the strength of the knot isn't an issue - chafe is the one to watch.
 
As long as the cleats are securely attached to the dock there is nothing wrong with using cleat hitches. In fact, that is how the cleats are designed to be used. Make sure you take a full turn around the base of the cleat before putting on the hitches. You can finish with a locking hitch if you prefer.
 
It's fine.

I put 2 cable ties to hold the end neatly back along the line which has so far prevented them walking the way a previous pair did.......... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif not so much the security but more making it obvious that these are 'permenant'.

strength will depend on the type of rope it's tied in. It will weaken some more than others.

ultimately the most likely failure point will be where the resultant loop rubs on the pontoon cleat - if clean and smooth no problem!
 
If you're looking to make up permanent mooring lines, then I'd go for the splice route every time. Three strand, dead easy. Braid, first one or two difficult, there after, not too bad with the right tools - they generally take 10 - 15 mins with a bit of practice. Only advantage with knots is easy adjustment to avoid chafe and of course, they're quicker and easier to do.

Good luck with it!
 
Lots of alternatives!

On the boat we have cleats, on the pontoon is an ongoing steel bar on stands about 1 meter apart. The lines are 3 strand polypropylen.
I would like to avoid splicing since I am not sure how long we will stay here. There is a possibility that another place comes available so we would have to move.

Thanks for your inputs, I will think it over.
 
Slip a length of reinforced plastic pipe onto the rope before tying your 'permanent' bowline to protect the rope from chafe on the cleat.
 
According to my seamans manual, the use of a bowine as a permanent knot especially for mooring is not recommended. I have seen this knot fail, especially when not under tension and subject to vibrations and flailing. Just the sort of conditions in use with a mooring line. Tie one in a spare piece of rope and see how long it takes you to undo it by flapping the thing about. It will surprise you.

Against my strong orders to the contrary, one of my crew decided to experiment with the dinghy painter and tied it to the wharf over night with a bowline, on an occasion when we were billeted ashore. Surprise, surprise, the next morning after a windy blustery night the dinghy had departed. He had a cold swim out to the moored yacht and we set out to look for the wayward dinghy following prevailing wind and currents. Fortunately we found it unharmed and resting in a tangle of mangroves. Another cold swim and a bit of mud plugging got the dinghy tied astern once more. Not with a bowline.

However sad to say the lesson did not teach the crew member and I had to stop him on two more occasions trying out modified bowines with various half hitches added etc. Needless to say he is no longer on my crew, and probably still experimenting around the Pacific and chasing or replacing wayward dinghies still.
 
[ QUOTE ]
According to my seamans manual, the use of a bowine as a permanent knot especially for mooring is not recommended. I have seen this knot fail, especially when not under tension and subject to vibrations and flailing. Just the sort of conditions in use with a mooring line. Tie one in a spare piece of rope and see how long it takes you to undo it by flapping the thing about. It will surprise you.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly why a couple of cable ties works so well to secure this knot for this purpose
 
Bowlines are adequately reliable, provided they're worked tight, and you have a look at 'em now and then. In synthetic rope, there is a slightly increased tendancy to slip ( the material is more slippery than traditional hemp ), so it's my habit to put on a locking half-hitch after, using the short end around the 'itself' part of the loop.

A double figure-of-eight is a stronger knot/bend/loop than the bowline ( that's why rock-climbers use it to tie on ) and is easier to tie.

Chafe can be reduced considerably by making a 'round turn' around the cleat where the rope will bear and/or threading on some bendy plastic hosepipe - or even time-expired firehose. When that's worn through, it's cheap and easy to replace it, rather than your expensive rope.

It's worth doing something similar where your lines pass through fairleads, with little strings attached to the piece of plastic pipe to hold it in the correct place on your line.

Fussy? Not if it keeps your lines from sawing through.....

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
The Bowline is a terrific knot, as for weakening a rope
well i reckon some people make things up, to appear
knowledgable. All ropes weaken over time, i've used
the knot for 50years
 
[ QUOTE ]
Is a bowline knot reliable for permanent use?

I want to make mooring lines at the correct length for my pontoon

[/ QUOTE ]
I considered this in detail last week-end and did the following research:

I walked around the marina and concluded about of 1/3 of long-term resident boats have fixed/spliced & shackled dock lines. About half of these setups were in a serious state of decay either due to fairlead chafe or UV degraded splices.

I asked for an opinion at the marina office and their pragmatic reply was splices or bowlines were OK but they dislike shackled docklines since this makes boat relocation for dredging more problematic for them.

In the end I took my cue from the boat of a resident marina night watchman. He uses bowlines with an extra loop back around the cleat arms, this eliminates movement and chafe at the cleat. Furthermore this simple setup encourages annual adjustment.

The worst setup is fixed shackled docklines with fixed spliced loops at the other end on deck. Such a setup cannot deal with rope stretch which means after a season these boats surge around on slack mooring lines.
 
Re: Bowline knot - for \'old fools\'

I, too, have used that knot and most of its variants for 'Safety of Life' applications ( i.e. mine ), as they say in the H&S Trade, for over 50 years or more. And still do.

One of the reasons I'm still able to bang on about stuff like this here is that I took a personal interest in what worked, how, and when not - and made appropriate choices that kept me in one piece.

So, OK, maybe I do qualify as an 'old fool' - but I've acquired that dubious honour by getting the right, reliable gen on the kit that was critical to me - and that includes ropes and knots - from people who know.

I will go on selecting the right knot - or at least an adequate knot - for the job in hand. Sometimes that's a bowline. And I am quite content that the research done, on a government-funded programme, in the National Engineering Laboratory in East Kilbride, in the mid-60s, into ropes, lines, fall arrester systems,( climbing kit ), hawsers, lift cables, etc. had it right when it was published - that some knots weaken ropes more than others at ultimate load, due to asymmetric stresses produced in the bent fibres. The bowline is shown consistently to be weaker at ultimate load than the double figure-of-eight.

Our friend ( quote - "retired lunatic but still practising" ) from non-mountainous, non-caving Norfolk is entitled to his unreasoned prejudices, but as a rather simple Google search will show him to be in error, he is not entitled to more than bare tolerance.

/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
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