Boring question about beam for catamaran enthusiasts

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stibbles

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I'm thinking about suitable catamarans for cruising the East Coast, say right from Whitby down to Ramsgate (not for the immediate future, it must be said, but - hey - we can fantasize). I'm thinking something in the mid-thirties foot LOA.

Design-wise, I'm persuaded by the more modern Fountaine Pajot-style cats with a beam to length ratio of well over 50%. So, for a 35 footer we're talking a beam of about 19-20 ft.

However, I realise they're many decent heavier displacement cats like Prout or Solaris which would have a beam under 16ft for this length.

My question (phew, I got there!) is whether going for the narrower beam would make it any easier to find a berth on the starker bits of the East Coast where it might not be possible to anchor or find a buoy? Or is even a 'narrow' cat about as welcome as flatulence in astronaut's clothing?

Does anyone have any experience or views on this? (Nb I realise the wider one would rule out the French Canals)

If anyone can be bothered to answer this tedious and hypothetical enquiry I'd be grateful.
 
Heavenly Twins as an example - 27' length, 13'.6" beam. No extra charge for being a cat in Woodbridge because we fit in a standard mobo berth. Much beamier and it may be a problem. Tollesbury only charged 10% more for any beam cat. Shotley don't want cats so charge 25% more. Only once in the last 4 years have I been charged extra for visitors rates (Shotley), so I declined!

Green with envy about a new F-P cat but for the cruising area you describe a 35 foot cat is a HUGE beast! An H-T or 9m Catalac would give you a hell of a lot of space and cost a fraction of a 35 footer. There are almost no good cats between the 29 foot Catalac 900 and the 37 foot Prout Snowgoose. The old Prouts, Aristocats, etc have a number of design issues. Have a look at the Comanche though, a really interesting combination of space and performance at about 35 feet.
 
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The old Prouts, Aristocats, etc have a number of design issues[ QUOTE ]


Do clarify, having enjoyed cruising the East Coast in a Prout 26 Sirocco, the Solent in a Prout 31 Quest, and a Prout 27 Ranger from Falmouth to Folkestone and Alderney to Boulogne.

I wait to hear more of your wisdom.
 
We've got a Prout Event 34 which is 10.4 long and 4.8m wide so slightly less than 50% ratio; they built them that width so that they fit down the French canals (apparently).

We haven't yet had any problems getting a berth - originally had her at Sovereign Harbour, Eastbourne; we then moved to Brightlingsea on a pontoon mooring, and are now at Walton-on-the-Naze (Titchmarsh). We've never had to pay more for being wide beam - there is the side advantage to the marina that we can go in shallower water than a lot of the other boats (we draw 83cm).

However, one or two East Coast marinas do charge extra (Shotley, for example), and Shotley's lock would be challenging anyway. We might also have a problem if we wanted to go on the Brightlingsea mooring buoys as cats tend to lie differently at anchor/on a buoy and might bash into the next boat as the buoys seem to be laid quite close together.

The Gemini 105MC is a much narrower beam cat, I think it's 34' long and 12' wide. We know of one that shares a pontoon finger berth beside a relative's Westerley Pageant, i.e. a cat and a thin, small mono fitting side-by-side in the sort of berth that might fit two normal 34' monos. However I do wonder slightly about the Gemini's stability in bigger seas, although that may just be because I'm a wimp.

Mr Chellers, who is down at Titchmarsh scrubbing Chellers' bottom (and who will tell you that a catamaran is twice as much antifouling work!), may have more comments about fitting the boat in marinas. He's done loads of singlehanding on Chellers but tends to stay the night at anchor or on a buoy rather than going into marinas - perhaps this is because it's easier.
 
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Green with envy about a new F-P cat but for the cruising area you describe a 35 foot cat is a HUGE beast!

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You wouldn't be envious about the marine mortgage that would have to go with it! What I'm thinking about is probably quite irresponsible, but my attitudes have definitely changed after family illnessses. After both parents and others with far too much genetic material in common with me for my liking have developed serious illnesses at ages earlier than I could hope to retire I've come to be more concerned about missing out on one or two select things I really want to do than being broke in old age. Anyhow, with a family history like mine maybe the mortgage underwriters wouldn't ultimately offer me the necessary anyway /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In the very outline discussions I had with them recently they didn't seem twitchy about the type of boat (2nd hand cat perhaps as much as 20 years old), although they say that max term for this type would be less (10 years) than others. I've never looked into this before and I must say I had a preconceived idea (well, they're in danger of being wrong) that they would be focussed on lending on new boats from big marques.
 
Interestin thread. We've been thinking of a cat for long term cruising in a couple of years but the idea of being charged extra has been one of the major objections.

Swmob fancies a Gemini. I tend more towards a Solaris Sunrise, though I do like the double bed on the bridgedeck of the Gemini.
 
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We haven't yet had any problems getting a berth - originally had her at Sovereign Harbour, Eastbourne; we then moved to Brightlingsea on a pontoon mooring, and are now at Walton-on-the-Naze (Titchmarsh). We've never had to pay more for being wide beam - there is the side advantage to the marina that we can go in shallower water than a lot of the other boats (we draw 83cm).

However, one or two East Coast marinas do charge extra (Shotley, for example), and Shotley's lock would be challenging anyway. We might also have a problem if we wanted to go on the Brightlingsea mooring buoys as cats tend to lie differently at anchor/on a buoy and might bash into the next boat as the buoys seem to be laid quite close together.


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Mrs Chellers, I know you are indeed a catamaran enthusiast, I should have pm'ed you!

I familiar with all the waters to which you refer from sailing monohulls, but hadn't gauged a view on berthing a multihull there, so that 1st hand experience is very helpful, thanks.

About three seasons ago I did see (and this is a question for you as well, Simon) an extraordinary very large Shuttleworth (I think?) cat sailed out of Titchmarsh Marina. Are they still there? The beam must have been about 23 ft, but - from memory - they'd managed to be berthed at the head of a walkway where no fin-keeler could have stopped, so it gave me optimism that this kind of creative approach might be adopted by other marinas.

On the Deben I have also seen a Prout (a Snowgoose Elite, I think) moored at Ramsholt and another very tidy cat I couldn't identify at Felixstowe Ferry. I reckon they would be well suited to going over the bar.

I must say I do have some sympathy for the view that multihulls should pay more in marinas (maybe it's the current monohuller in me, I may change my tune if I ever get one /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif) It's not that I wouldn't be concerned about the cost - don't want to give anyone the wrong impression in case I come to buy a boat off them - but I would be more concenred if I couldn't find somewhere to berth when I really needed to, so would accept being charged extra in these circumstances.

I take your point about the mooring and swinging differently from other people (err.... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif), eg at Brightlingsea.

I have also seen a Commanche sailed by a couple from Market Deeping being made very welcome at Halfpenny Pier, which is a real favourite stop of ours.
 
Personally I'm happy you didn't go for the PM enquiry because like SlowBoat, we are also interested in cat's so it would be good to see some sensible discussion about them. Had a trip on one years ago and couldn't get over how much space you get with them. Didn't have any rough weather though, so would be good to hear how they handle it.
 
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Personally I'm happy you didn't go for the PM enquiry because like SlowBoat, we are also interested in cat's so it would be good to see some sensible discussion about them. Had a trip on one years ago and couldn't get over how much space you get with them. Didn't have any rough weather though, so would be good to hear how they handle it.

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Thanks. I do have just a little experience in sailing one - I did my Dayskipper at the dedicated Catamaran sailing school down in Cornwall run by the impressive Jim Deurden. Needless to say, I was very impressed or I wouldn't be making this thread (although will be chartering before seriously thinking about taking the plunge to buy).

I guess, like all boats it would depend which model as even within cruising cats I understand they have very different sailing characteristics (depending on the usual sort of factors - size, displacement, wetted area + beam, bridgedeck clearance etc).

If this dream becomes a reality the current plan would be to be based in your part or the world, although the max beam of the Fosdyke crane (18ft, I'm told), might also be a factor. Mind you, they'll be so many sandbanks around I'll be dried out half the time anyway, whether voluntary or involuntary, so perhaps I shouldn't worry - they'll be plenty on opportunity to get the antifouling on /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Not sure about the crane at Fosdyke but I do know there are a few cat's there, one in particular looks like it's been built for ocean going in the roughest weather. Very solid. But yes, plenty of sand banks to go aground on around here, Roger Sand is very dry at low tide and only a little bit wet at high.
 
I guess what prompted the comments about thinking 35 was huge was your prospective cruising ground. Nothing wrong with a huge boat but the East Coast is about the magic of small shallow creeks, small harbours and stunning unspoiled scenery - not about long passages. There isn't a perfect East Coast boat, but the cruising cat is one of the best options. Having said that, when we retire and disappear to the Arctic as we plan, it will almost certainly be in a Freedom 40 with a cat ketch rig, then sell it when we get back and buy another cat!

Charging extra for a 50% beam or less cruising cat is just plain prejudice - there's many a mobo approaching 50% beam.

Cats are a dream for family sailing and the small draft/big accommodation is a winning combination, but they don't suit everyone and they vary a great deal between marque's. Our dream older cat is the Snowgoose elite, it really uses the space well, looks good and sails quite well. I would love to sail a Gemini, but as a family guy I'm not convinced the space/£ equation is right.
 
I just avoid marinas.

I sail to get away from things and I do feel slightly ripped off when I am charged the extra 50%.

Some marinas are prepared to waive this prejudicial charge but it seems to be a convention.

So get a swinging mooring I say.

P
 
I mentioned Gimini cats on the Livaboard link a few years ago and the view was that they have good performance due to their centerplates/swing keels and relatively narrow hulls but at the expense of load carrying ability. The general suggestion was that a Solaris Sunrise would be better. However, there are only two of us and we don't intend being permanant liveaboards, so Gemini with it's queen sized bed on the bridge deck still looks favorite at the moment.
 
We had a go on a Gemini before we bought our Prout and liked it, but they are built to a budget and the Prout definitely feels better screwed together. We were also a bit unsure about the rudders/prop steering contraption.

The Solaris Sunrise was another boat we were considering but they are less common and there weren't any available when we were looking. We looked at several Prouts (including the Snowgoose and Snowgoose Elite that we thought were just a bit large for the two of us), the Star Twins (ugly and not as nice as the Prout) and Catalacs (not our cup of tea, cockpit felt far too open for safety to me!). I think had there been a Solaris Sunrise available that might have been a very serious contender, although I believe they don't go as well as the Prouts.
 
Agree with everything there. The Prouts were better built than the Gemini's are. I also know an ex-owner and he was shocked at how rapidly everything started to feel loose (whatever that means), but I'd still love to go sailing in one. The Star Twins is a fug ugly boat and I'm a Patterson fan; the Summer Twins 28 isn't beautiful but it's a fast and roomy boat, far far bigger than an HT 27. We also rejected the Catalac because of the cockpit, but understand why others love them. The Prout mast position just works so well; so well in fact that Patterson copied it for the HT.
 
i was having a good look at cats a whils back and the ones that got my interest were iroquois,Prouts and catalacs.The fastest one was the Iroqouis but the danger was that they can flip if you ride them too hard.The catalac was a strong contender,if you want a boat that is built solid then a catalac is the one,one catalac survived the queens birthday storm(70ft waves 100+mph winds) when the big keel boats were going down.

personally id go for a prout,i like the look and i had a sirrocco in my sights but changed my mind due to the current economic climate.
 
Although the Queen bed on the Gemini is a good feature, this was also available on some other cats (the Prout Event 34 did also come with this layout sometimes).

The Gem has the hardtop which means that you have to look through the windows and I found it fairly hard to see where I was going whilst sailing. A good lookout was very important. We felt the visibility was much better from the Prout, plus the mast aft position means that you can do almost everything from the cockpit.

The bridgedeck slamming in the Gemini seemed quite loud, but we also get this in the Prout a little and you very quickly tune it out.

Overall for me there is no contest in which I would prefer between Prout and Gemini, plus the keener price on the Prout is a good thing, but the Gemini is faster and if that's what you want then it's a good choice. They seem to be holding their value reasonably too.
 
In the very outline discussions I had with them recently they didn't seem twitchy about the type of boat (2nd hand cat perhaps as much as 20 years old), although they say that max term for this type would be less (10 years) than others. I've never looked into this before and I must say I had a preconceived idea (well, they're in danger of being wrong) that they would be focussed on lending on new boats from big marques.
Click to expand...

Recently went through the process of financing to buy Wild Otter.

Marine Mortgages for boats older than 10 years seem to be restricted to 10 years max.

We financed by going to our house mortgage company and extending our house mortgage. I've continued to pay endowment policies which I am not using to finance anything else. We transfered our main mortgage to repayment after endowment policies became 'unreliable', which left me with the endowments to secure the loan. This has proved to be the cheapest way to do it for us with regard to interest rates.

I also tried an interest only loan from Lombard marine, but the shorter the timescale, in our case repayment within 6 years, the greater the percentage you have to find. Again, in our case, up to 50%. This removed borrowing from them as an option.

HTH

Ian
 
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