Boats to be registered in Ireland

Will be interesting to see if it gets anywhere and how they deal with the obvious difficulties of implementing this retrospectively.
 
The Irish do seem to be ahead of us in state intrusion into sailing (don't know about other areas of life). They've had compulsory lifejackets (on some kinds of boat) for a few years now, and it is also official strong advice there that you report start and end of voyages to the authorities. The Irish MAIB-equivalent report on that motor-sailer that sank leading to a long raft drift chided them for not having reported out, and said that everybody should always do so. They sent it to our MAIB who said "agree with most of your points, but we don't believe in the checking out and in thing", good on 'em.

Pete
 
We might have thought of the Irish as free spirited etc but when I went to Cork a few years ago it was crawling with Jobsworths from various departments of government who seemed to be in competition over who had the best and newest Ribs and most blue flashing lights.
 
we are great at making rules here , but implementing them is another thing, this will be just another 'jobs for the boys' i for one won't be regestering anything, just another tax :mad:
 
Hmm, when we went to Ireland (Dublin, Howth, Arklow) in the summer we actually had to make an effort to find someone to pay for berthing and find showers. Nobody mentioned a lack of lifejackets until we were in the bar, and they laughed when I mentioned immigration procedures. They may pass the law but I'll be amazed if anything changes for the vast majority of the coast.
Same in GB though, the UKBA boats are all painted to show off to discourage people but in reality the job of keeping such large borders closed is impossible.
In terms of owner registration...good luck hunting down the owners of all the boats around the coast. I doubt a government department could even find the owners of all the marinas!
 
Few here take a blind bit of notice of governments attempts to impose Big Brother policies on society in general.
Can,t see the sailors round here rushing to embrace the proposal, unless theres a grant involved!
 
ratbag said:
we are great at making rules here , but implementing them is another thing, this will be just another 'jobs for the boys' i for one won't be regestering anything, just another tax :mad:
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When I first went back to Ireland I dutifully flew the Q flag. The customs telephoned the local boatman to ask me to take it down, otherwise they would only have to come and check me.
 
As someone who has to register (circumnavigation starting in April) It has been an interesting experience dealing with the various authorities.

So much so that we have abandoned the effort and gone for UK Part 1.

The only substantive legislative changes planned for Ireland at present are those that will allow the state more access into people's lives and the ability to impose additional taxation to pay for horrific and obscene government waste.
 
lustyd said:
Hmm, when we went to Ireland (Dublin, Howth, Arklow) in the summer we actually had to make an effort to find someone to pay for berthing and find showers. Nobody mentioned a lack of lifejackets until we were in the bar, and they laughed when I mentioned immigration procedures. They may pass the law but I'll be amazed if anything changes for the vast majority of the coast.
Same in GB though, the UKBA boats are all painted to show off to discourage people but in reality the job of keeping such large borders closed is impossible.
In terms of owner registration...good luck hunting down the owners of all the boats around the coast. I doubt a government department could even find the owners of all the marinas!
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Unfortunately they don't have to. All they need to do is to inspect the boat and ask for your papers. If you don't have them you get fined.

Once legislation is passed it's too late. The time to act is before a law is in place.
 
Well on a practical level, I notice they intend to go to consultation. If/when that happens, will somebody tell me? The regulations for skippered chartered boats are nonsensical ...

On the other hand, knowing the current climate it's probably a prelude to a yacht tax ...

I've had a UK registered yacht over here for some years, never fly an ensign, rarely wear a lifejacket, and nobody has ever bothered me.

When I came into Crosshaven in 1998 we reported to the Garda station as advised in the pilot. The Gard looked totally perplexed, then asked. "Well, let's see now, have you got any drugs with you?"
 
This is the bit that should raise concerns, if not hackles, in the UK:

"Almost all other EU countries have boat registration legislation except for the UK and Ireland – and pressure is being applied in Britain to bring such registration into law through the UK Border Agency."

Who is applying pressure?
If the UK Border Agency will they administer the registration? I bet not, but they will do the enforcement.
Surely something to be vigilant for and head off at the pass.
 
Gordonmc said:
This is the bit that should raise concerns, if not hackles, in the UK:

"Almost all other EU countries have boat registration legislation except for the UK and Ireland – and pressure is being applied in Britain to bring such registration into law through the UK Border Agency."

Who is applying pressure?
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I suspect nobody really, but those pushing for it in Ireland want to make their case look as strong as possible. If you squint a bit, the e-Borders proposal could look a bit like the same kind of thing as compulsory vessel registration, hence the mention of UKBA.

Pete
 
Gordonmc said:
This is the bit that should raise concerns, if not hackles, in the UK:

"Almost all other EU countries have boat registration legislation except for the UK and Ireland – and pressure is being applied in Britain to bring such registration into law through the UK Border Agency."

Who is applying pressure?
If the UK Border Agency will they administer the registration? I bet not, but they will do the enforcement.
Surely something to be vigilant for and head off at the pass.
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It has just come up in a slightly different context in a Dutch proposal to add to the RCD a requirement for registration, regular inspection of boats and compulsory licences. Proposal withdrawn after action from our govt prompted by the RYA. Well reported in the press.

No doubt registration would be considered by the UKBA as desirable if their proposals for border controls go ahead, but it was not specifically mentioned in the last set of proposals which the govt has put on the back burner. It also came up in the review of the light dues system of financing buoyage a couple of years ago and the difficulty and complexity of establishing a compulsory registration system was considered a major barrier to applying a direct tax to leisure craft. Nothing seems to have happened as a result of that report.

One hopes that the RYA will be ready to resist any such proposals in the future.
 
Just to add a voice of reason.

At the moment in Ireland there is no real system of registration for small boats. If you are sailing abroad you can chance it with no papers other than your Bill of Sale and perhaps original VAT receipt. Have done so crosssing to Wales or the IOM.

You can go for the Irish Ships Register, which as the name suggests is designed for large ships. This register is intended as a proof of legal title, records mortgages and charges, and is considered to indicate VAT paid status. Unfortunately the registration process is complex and legalistic, and requires, amongst other things, a full history of ownership from build to present, including original builders certificate and Vat receipt and all Bills of Sale. It is also widely felt among yacht owners that certain registration ports are actively unfriendly to small boats, and cause undue problems for people trying to register in good faith. D'ont ask me how I know!

You can also go for registration with the Irish Sailing Association, which is cheap and cheerful, provides you with a number to stick on your stern and a nice cert, but proof of absolutely nothing other than that you might intend to wander abroad. It does fill a gap, and is welcome, but carries no guarantees. In practice will probably do in most of Europe unless you meet a really difficult official.

I have sailed from the Hebrides to the Isles of Scilly and down both sides of the channel from the Netherlands to Brittany without ever being checked, and long may that continue. The dreaded French are perhaps more welcoming of fellow celts than the RosBifs, but you never know when officialdom will decide to be difficult. This is why I am on the Ships Register for my currrent yacht.


Irish cruising sailors therefore need a registration system that will allow them to cruise the world in safety, and I would say there is good support for such a system, provided it is efficient and economic, and most important, voluntary.

All attempts to make registration compulsory or introduce e-borders type legislation should be resisted. The ISA can be expected to do a good job, but vigilance is needed.
 
Finbar said:
At the moment in Ireland there is no real system of registration for small boats. If you are sailing abroad you can chance it with no papers other than your Bill of Sale and perhaps original VAT receipt. Have done so crosssing to Wales or the IOM.

You can go for the Irish Ships Register, which as the name suggests is designed for large ships. This register is intended as a proof of legal title, records mortgages and charges, and is considered to indicate VAT paid status. Unfortunately the registration process is complex and legalistic [...]

You can also go for registration with the Irish Sailing Association, which is cheap and cheerful, provides you with a number to stick on your stern and a nice cert, but proof of absolutely nothing other than that you might intend to wander abroad.
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But that sounds like exactly the same situation as exists in the UK. Ok, our SSR is issued by a government agency rather than an association, but it's otherwise much the same, no proof of anything. You could fill in an online form with whatever details you want, pay your £25, and they'll send you a registration certificate for a boat that belongs to somebody else, or that doesn't exist at all.

Nobody here is seriously pushing for compulsory registration.

Pete
 
Tranona said:
Will be interesting to see if it gets anywhere and how they deal with the obvious difficulties of implementing this retrospectively.
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Difficulty and expense of implementation only stops governments when it is something they didn't want to do anyway.

Registration for private vessels started in Australian States sometime in the 1970s.

For a long time not a lot happened except regular increases in fees.

Now they have all sorts of electronica to help them catch folks out.

It gets to the point where you can't really relax on the water for fear that you are not compliant with some regulation.
 
prv said:
But that sounds like exactly the same situation as exists in the UK. Ok, our SSR is issued by a government agency rather than an association, but it's otherwise much the same, no proof of anything. You could fill in an online form with whatever details you want, pay your £25, and they'll send you a registration certificate for a boat that belongs to somebody else, or that doesn't exist at all.

Nobody here is seriously pushing for compulsory registration.

Pete
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Maybe not, but the legislation now exists, as OldHarry has pointed out. I would not bet on them being put off by cost of implementation; after PFI and many other cockups, it is quite clear that politicians, civil srvants and consultants are all prepared to fudge the numbers to justify whatever they want to do, and protecting citizens from enjoying their freedom seems high on their list of precautionary nannying policies - all strictly in our own best interests, of course. Also, now that the MMO exists, it must have something to do, and widening its own remit to increase its staff numbers, budget, influence and, quite coincidentally of course, the salary grade of its chief executive, is an important part of that. BobPrell's take on the Aussie experience should give us all pause for serious thought.
 
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