boat survey liability query

Y

yourmomm

Well-Known Member
Joined
6 Jun 2006
Messages
179
Visit site
hi-i am in the process of organising a pre-purchase/insurance/valuation/fit-for-purpose-for-sailing-from-portugal-to-uk-across-the-bay-of-biscay survey for my boat, which is in lagos. the insurance company gave me the details of a surveyor who is not affiliated to any professional body, but on whose word they are quite happy to insure the boat. i dont understand!!-i thought all surveys HAD to be conducted by surveyors who are affiliated either with the YBDSA or IIMS? if not, then what is the point of these bodies?! would i have any problems trying to claim on my insurance if my boat sinks on the way home because of a problem the surveyor did not pick up?! would the insurance company have a case to refuse to pay out, despite recommending this surveyor?! would the knowledgable forumites be happy to survey their own boat using such a surveyor (he has qualifications and 40 years of experience, just no affiliations)? many thanks for your help.
 
The important poinnt is that the insurance company are the ones asking for this man to do the survey. Therefore -to them- his apparent lack of qualifications doesnt matter. It means that you will only be able to claim against the insurance, rather than against the surveyor, but that is the easiest approach anyway.

It would be difficult for the insurance company to weasel its way out of liaboility when they are the ones requiring a survey by this man.
 
Unless you pay for a very expensive and extensive survey, there will be lots of things which could cause problems during your trip and which will not be covered. For example, I have never yet had a survey that covered the rigging, partly because no surveyor will go up the mast and partly because you cant predict when the rigging is about to fatigue anyway. I have never had a survey that covered the engine, and even if I did pay for this could I really complain if a big end went half way across Biscay? The survey wont cover the state of the batteries, or the autohelm or the electronics.

Surveyors can only survey what they can have access to and your basis of claim against them would be that they were negligent. That is not the same as simply being wrong. A survey is not a garauntee

So the survey will not in any way say that your boat is fit to cross Biscay - unless the surveyor concerned is naive. Thats why you have insurance - to cover the accidents that can happen.
 
Re: boat survey liability query ..... \"Supposed Official Bodies\"

So lets clear this matter away easily :

The YBDSA ..... YDSA ...... as they like to change their title at times to suit ... has NO official or Authoritive stand in any way whatsoever - it is a self-appointed association of people who banded together to give impression that they are such.
Having a survey done by a YBDSA or non YBDSA surveyor makes no significant difference.

The YBDSA and others like to "crow" about Qualified Members etc. - it's purely a Vetting procedure with no official Industry or Recognised Certificates etc.

If the Insurance Co. has recc'd a surveyor - then there must be a reason ..... and you may be wise to accept.

So as a Marine Survey Company Owner - take it from me ..... there are no Official Professional Bodies other than such as the Nautical Institute as example - and to be honest - YBDSA would fall short of their requirements .......
 
Re: boat survey liability query ..... \"Supposed Official Bodies\"

[ QUOTE ]
The YBDSA ..... YDSA ...... as they like to change their title at times to suit ... has NO official or Authoritive stand in any way whatsoever - it is a self-appointed association of people who banded together to give impression that they are such.


[/ QUOTE ]I don't want to undermine your argument about the way that surveyors of yachts are qualified, but to criticise the industry for being 'self regulating' is not just. Many professional bodies are 'self regulating'. Lawyers, doctors and many others professional status are all regulated by membership of their own 'self regulated' professional bodies. You might legitimately be critical of the low standards of entry qualification for the YBDSA, but to be self regulated is not a crime.
 
Re: boat survey liability query ..... \"Supposed Official Bodies\"

I don't argue against self-regulation - that is preferred in many fields to govt. imposed style.

What I do object to is the style of text / advertising by YBDSA and the alliance formed with media to put across that YBDSA is only body and imply official body.

Believe me - I have no argument or disrespect for Surveyors themselves - it is the YBDSA itself and its advertising / face it puts on ....

To illustrate - please search back through mags and find YBDSA adverts .... the compare to their true status ..... you cannot say they are false adverts - but also you cannot say they stick with the facts !
One I remember is the implying that a non-YBDSA Surveyor could just send a report via Postman without any work - so it was better to use "Professionally Qualified" YBDSA surveyor. Now that is "not on" ..... I know YBDSA surveyors who have sent reports via post with scant inspection of the boat ... but that has been sorted ... I have to say without YBDSA !

The original post question shows very well the mis-conception and mis-information that YBDSA is THE Professional body. The author feels that using a non YBDSA Surveyor will leave him with possible problems .... even though Ins. Co. recc'd him. As most know that is not the case and I am showing / highlighting that it is not so.

Yes I am a non YBDSA Surveyor and proud of it - it means that a) I can form my own fee table without "increase factors" applied by YBDSA, b) I can act independently of ALL Brokers and Designers - as it is a grey area when a Surveyor body is also a Designer / Broker body as well - means co-operation between them all ?, c) I own a large Marine Survey Company and have gained International recognition / experience on most types of water-borne craft.

Final - Whether I agree with YBDSA or not is not the point - I wish to correct the mis-conception of its status. It's the choice of others as to whether they wish to use YBDSA surveyor or another independent of YBDSA .....
 
Re: boat survey liability query ..... \"Supposed Official Bodies\"

[ QUOTE ]


So as a Marine Survey Company Owner - take it from me .....

[/ QUOTE ]

The comments I made above are my understanding of what a surveyor covers and what he doesnt. Which is not to denigrate the role of a surveyor so much as to explain that the common view that a survey is some sort of product garauntee is wrong.

But am I right? I would be interested in your comments.
 
I am possibly one of the least technically minded people on this forum but have always used a YBDSA surveyor when buying a boat, except for my first 19 footer, when the insurance co said that it wasn't fair to demand a survey on a boat costing 2K and that a letter of seaworthiness from the commodore of the club or similar would suffice.
I am sure that there are excellent non affiliated surveyors around, but as novices entering the minefield of boat buying a registered surveyor provides some reassurance. I have seen apalling surveys from registered surveyors since, including one from a surveyor and well known designer who hadn't detected that the boat had been sunk!! There are week long courses which one can take to become a yacht surveyor.. I believe one has to go through a period of'apprenticeship' to become YBDSA registered. As an excellent surveyor who I have used several times, and who has saved me from some expensive mistakes once said, anyone can make a mistake. Perhaps the YBDSA provides some sort of indemnity ??
I do agree with the comment that having a survey and then expecting the boat to be 100 percent unsinkable is being naive in the extreme. Unless the surveyor is involved in a complete re fit, or includes a structural dismantling in his survey, and even then, there are so many unknowns that could fail.
 
Survey what is it ?

It should be a fair and independent assessment of a craft or item in condition and suitability for purchasers / clients use.

It is no guarantee other than it is conducted in fair and honest manner with full regard to clients request.

Many complain that surveys have a lot of get-out clauses ... basically if you can't strip out panels / gain access to hidden areas etc. - then surveyor has to clause them out. Similarly there are few surveyors who are electrical / engine specialists and that also has to be taken into account.

My instructions to my Inspectors are :

Listen to Client and follow his instructions except where they may create conflict or non-professional conduct / liability. In that case call me.
Talk to client preferably with him present at boat.
Show areas of concern, discuss possible remedies.
Decide whether it is necessary to mention in report and as to what extent - required, reccommended or just indicated for review.

The client is asked to detail excatly what he wants report for, what he wants covered, who will see report etc.

The idea is to supply a survey report based on observation of what is really needed .... clients instructions.

Survey is no guarantee - a boat has too many nooks and crannies and possible hidden defects / latent items to be so. Without tearing the boats to bits - its experience and pure detective work ....

OK - I may not have covered entire spectrum ... but have tried to give a general appreciation of the black-art !! Each survey is different and I am still amazed / impressed by many things seen ... despite the years !!
 
Re: Survey what is it ?

I don't think anyone is expecting a guarantee from a surveyor, but there must be some level of professional liability in a survey.

For example if a survey fails to see a serious defect that subsequently results in a significant (uninsured) financial loss to the purchaser then I would expect a claim against the surveyor on the basis of professional negligence to be made.

In terms of personal experience I have always been fairly suspicious of surveyors since one described a lead keel as been made of cast iron, even I can tell the difference.
 
Isn\'t that why most carry P&I cover ?

No one expects a surveyor to be able to walk away scot free from a serious msitake on his part ... I haven't said that.
 
Personally I would take a recommendation by an insurance company very seriously. They obviously have faith in him or they wouldnt underwrite boats on the basis of his surveys.
 
Re: Isn\'t that why most carry P&I cover ?

No indeed.

I agree that isn't what you said

I was trying to indicate to "yourmomm" where the boundaries are, which is always a bit unclear to me, particulary with a survey requested by insurer.

I still have to pay so I assume that I call the tune. The insurer will only pay for stuff that is included in the policy - which leaves lots of opportunity to take a financial hit. So the logic to me is to get the best value out of the survey even if it means paying the surveyor a bit more - I suppose with my cynical trousers hitched well up - to get the protection of his PI insurance.

Of course if the boat is of a relatively low cost then the question becomes more difficult. Certainly worth getting someone else to have a look, its so easy to fall for a boat and stop thinking logically/financially - trust me - I know!
 
Boat purchase ........

So often decided not by logic - but passion !!

You walk into the yard and it's like a switch is made ... Yep - I must have it !! Arguments / information / allsorts can be thrown at you - but you sit dreaming and counting the days till it gets launched and you get her under your hand.

Boats ............... !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top