Blue ensign dick'ed

[Mark-1]

PH,
the law says if you fly a blue or white duster you need a warrant?

Warrant or permit?
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-blenr.html#reg

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/part/I
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/4

All interesting stuff.

 

[prr]

Warrant or permit?
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-blenr.html#reg

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/part/I
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/21/section/4

None of this applies to leisure craft you can go to sea in a fridge freezer & fly the 'Holiday Inn' flag on it.

 

[Mark-1]

None of this applies to leisure craft

Looks to me like the MSA specifically includes vessels under 24m.

you can go to sea in a fridge freezer & fly the 'Holiday Inn' flag on it.

You can, but looks to me as though, according to the MSA if a Navy ship requests you show it your colours you have to find a legal UK flag and show it. Bet it's never happened, but even so.

 

[capnsensible]

jack-me-tickler to the end lol

Scupper me starboard flip flop eh?

 

[Blue Sunray]

None of this applies to leisure craft ...

That is what is known in the legal profession as utter bollocks.

 

[Mark-1]

That is what is known in the legal profession as utter bollocks.

Yes. Although if it had said: 'none of this is ever applied to leisure craft' he'd not have been far from the truth. I doubt her Maj has a wardrobe full of confiscated ensigns.

 

[A1Sailor]

Thankyou John, I now finally understand why the RAF is so good at air-to-air combat (ironic).

It is now 68 years since they last had a confirmed "kill", unless you count the Phantom that shot down a Jaguar on exercise over Germany, or the GR3 pilot who managed the spectacular feat of shooting himself down while performing a strafing run (went too low, and a 30mm cannon shell ricocheted off the target and back up into the airframe).

Are you perhaps doing the RAF Sea Harrier pilots embarked on HMS Hermes and HMS Invincible in 1982 a disservice by stating they didn't get any "kills"? I believe at least four of them shot down a number of aircraft:

HMS Hermes, No.800 Sea Harriers:
Lt Cmdr A D Auld (DSC) RN 2 Daggers [a50, a51]
Lt Cmdr G W J Batt (post DSC) RN -
Lt Cmdr M S Blissett (MID) RN Skyhawk [a36]
Lt Cmdr R V Frederiksen (MID) RN Dagger [a38]
Lt M Hale RN Dagger [a49]
Flt Lt J Leeming RAF Skyhawk [a43]
Flt Lt D H S Morgan (DSC) RAF 2 Skyhawks [a67, a68]
Lt C R W Morrell (MID) RN 1½ Skyhawks [a42, a44]
Flt Lt R Penfold RAF Dagger [a7]
Lt D A Smith (MID) RN Dagger [a52], Skyhawk [a69]
Lt Cmdr N W Thomas (DSC) RN Skyhawk [a37]

plus
3 Pucaras [a2,a3,a4], 1½ Pumas [a45, a47], Agusta 109A [a46]

HMS Invincible, No.801 Sea Harriers:
Flt Lt P C Barton RAF Mirage [a5]
Lt W A Curtis (post MID) RN Canberra [a8]
Lt S R Thomas (DSC) RN Mirage [a6], 2 Daggers [a39,a40]
Cmdr N D Ward (DSC) AFC RN Pucara [a35], Dagger [a41], Hercules [a65]

plus
½ Puma [a47]
http://www.naval-history.net/F42-Falklands-Argentine_ships_attacked.htm

OK - they were part of 800NAS and 801NAS Fleet Air Arm at the time, but they were still RAF pilots!

 

[Colvic Watson]

On a more serious note:


Some people take freedom and democracy for granted. Some even take the privileges and responsibilities and rights that go with it less than seriously as well.

I hope their rights and privileges are never taken away as they might find the way some people in this world are forced to live their lives a bit of a shock.

That such a Churchillian post could be written because some of us fly a blue ensign just because it looks nice and compliments the blue stack pack illustrates how important it is that we continue to fly the blue as often as possible. A world in which there are no forum posts linking the wrong coloured ensign and the end of civilisation would be a sad, humourless place.

Fly the blue! Give the old boys something to chunter about, we owe it to them.

 

[Mark-1]

On a more serious note:
Some people take freedom and democracy for granted. Some even take the privileges and responsibilities and rights that go with it less than seriously as well.
I hope their rights and privileges are never taken away as they might find the way some people in this world are forced to live their lives a bit of a shock.

A powerful speech that has spurred me to action. In solidarity with the people who are forced to live their lives in a way that would shock me, henceforth I'm going to fly the Flag of Narnia.

 

[Colvic Watson]

A powerful speech that has spurred me to action. In solidarity with the people who are forced to live their lives in a way that would shock me, henceforth I'm going to fly the Flag of Narnia.

How the hell did that one escape me? I'll get one from eBay and cut out the lion rampant and sew it on to one of our more bigger blue ensigns, who would dare to question a lion rampant upon a blue? Narnia and a flag that causes threads to start because of the mere colour of the flag. Champion.

By the way I see on eBay that one can buy large blue ensigns that don't have the Welsh red diagonal, a mistake by our Chinese cousins but for some that could be worth it just for the omission.

Do you think people see our awful fender displays when we're too indolent to take them in and tut-tut, muttering to one another "They've got a blue ensign. You expect better from that class of sailor".

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Thankyou John, I now finally understand why the RAF is so good at air-to-air combat (ironic).

It is now 68 years since they last had a confirmed "kill", unless you count the Phantom that shot down a Jaguar on exercise over Germany, or the GR3 pilot who managed the spectacular feat of shooting himself down while performing a strafing run (went too low, and a 30mm cannon shell ricocheted off the target and back up into the airframe).

Every UK air to air combat sortie since Palestine (1948) has flown from an aircraft carrier. Yet the RAF felt the need to sacrifice what was widely regarded as western Europe's best fighter (Sea Harrier FA2). As the yanks would say, "Go figure."

Blimey, how did we get to here from a yachty impeding a large ship in a narrow channel?

There's a few who served in Korea who would be rather inclined to think you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, not to mention a few other skirmishes. It's to the credit of a variety of armed forces that any air threat is largely nullified before any major operation these days. That in itself says a lot about the significance of air superiority regardless of the bases used to obtain it. Why on earth would you risk one on one or worse air combat with aircraft that have the home advantage when you can destroy them on the ground?

You can only play what's in front of you - how many naval exchanges have there been in recent years for the RN?

 

[AuntyRinum]

... I doubt her Maj has a wardrobe full of confiscated ensigns.

No? When the Royal Corinthian at Cowes was sold to a private individual, it is alleged that Prince Philip sent the steward from the RYS to remove their blue ensign.

 

[Mark-1]

When the Royal Corinthian at Cowes was sold to a private individual, it is alleged that Prince Philip sent the steward from the RYS to remove their blue ensign.

I hadn't heard that, sounds a great story. Do you mean when RORC and Cowes RCYC merged? Or at some time in the past? I have some vague memory of Cowes RCYC closing for a while a few years back (or was it Cowes Corinthian that closed and reopened) - was it then? Are you saying RCYC in Cowes can no longer issue permits to fly Blue flags? What about the East Coast incarnation of RCYC?

 

[Resolution]

No? When the Royal Corinthian at Cowes was sold to a private individual, it is alleged that Prince Philip sent the steward from the RYS to remove their blue ensign.

Sounds like a Daily Wail story. Tell us more!!

The sober truth is that the warrant authorising a club to have a special or defaced ensign is issued by the Min of Defence to the club. If the RYS sent a steward ( do they have such an employee?) round next door to make any such instruction, I fancy the Corinthian would know exactly where to stuff (wear) an ensign.....

 

[AuntyRinum]

I hadn't heard that, sounds a great story. Do you mean when RORC and Cowes RCYC merged? Or at some time in the past? I have some vague memory of Cowes RCYC closing for a while a few years back (or was it Cowes Corinthian that closed and reopened) - was it then? Are you saying RCYC in Cowes can no longer issue permits to fly Blue flags? What about the East Coast incarnation of RCYC?

It was in the 1980s and the ensign removed was the one flying on the RCYC flagpole.

 

[AuntyRinum]

Sounds like a Daily Wail story. Tell us more!!

The sober truth is that the warrant authorising a club to have a special or defaced ensign is issued by the Min of Defence to the club. If the RYS sent a steward ( do they have such an employee?) round next door to make any such instruction, I fancy the Corinthian would know exactly where to stuff (wear) an ensign.....

Really? Perhaps your knowledge doesn't extend back to 1987 and Cowes yachting politics. The RCYC southern branch at Cowes closed in that year and the whole operation was privatised. At that point they were no longer entitled to fly the blue hence its removal. People who like tradition care about such things.

 

[A1Sailor]

There's a few who served in Korea who would be rather inclined to think you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, not to mention a few other skirmishes. It's to the credit of a variety of armed forces that any air threat is largely nullified before any major operation these days. That in itself says a lot about the significance of air superiority regardless of the bases used to obtain it. Why on earth would you risk one on one or worse air combat with aircraft that have the home advantage when you can destroy them on the ground?

You can only play what's in front of you - how many naval exchanges have there been in recent years for the RN?

Very few - thankfully. Conqueror engaged the Belgrano, following which the Argentine surface fleet retreated and stayed in port. Had there been sufficient wind for ARA Veinticinco de Mayo to get her aircraft off the deck on 1st May 1982 there might have been a major naval engagement, but the winds were too light. It could be argued that the weather that day was a significant factor in the outcome of the conflict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Veinticinco_de_Mayo_(V-2)#Falklands_War

 

[jordanbasset]

Interesting thread, re needing a warrant etc to fly a Blue Ensign would be interesting to know if any one who has a Blue Ensign ever been stopped and asked to show their warrant by a Government official
Can't see it happening in Greece and if it did would expect an ebay receipt to be sufficient

 

[Resolution]

Really? Perhaps your knowledge doesn't extend back to 1987 and Cowes yachting politics. The RCYC southern branch at Cowes closed in that year and the whole operation was privatised. At that point they were no longer entitled to fly the blue hence its removal. People who like tradition care about such things.

Aunty
Do tell us more. Did the MoD really appoint an RYS employee to remove the RCYC club ensign?

By the way, I do care about these things, my club holds a warrant and I in turn have a permit to wear a blue ensign. A bit of rigmarole that confuses non sailing guests and most foreigners.
And I was sailing in the Solent in 1987 and have vague memories of the Corinthian problems, but not being an Islander these were never worth much attention. To me.
Peter

 

[Mark-1]

Aunty
Do tell us more. Did the MoD really appoint an RYS employee to remove the RCYC club ensign?

I remember the RCYC in Cowes closing for a time and that could easily have been 1987, but I'm not sure the whole club closed down, just that site. I also don't see how confiscating one flag would make any difference - did they only have one? Was getting a second flag made up impossible? If the site was no longer RCYC why would they want to fly someone else's flag anyway?

Moreover the MSA 1995 lists the people who can confiscate a flag and bar staff at nearby sailing clubs are not on it!

It's a great story and I hope it's true, perhaps someone can find some evidence for it.