Blakes Lavac Taylors - "having a laugh"?

[Kukri]

I have used their products - seacocks, paraffin cookers and WCs - over a sailing life of 46 years so far.

I have three things to say about them:

1. The designs have not changed - and they were old when I was a boy - except that:

a) Blakes have pretty much given up on the problem of the top seal on the Baby and Victory flush pumps ( one suggestion, which I heard from an experienced yachtsman back in the 1970's, is to use a stainless steel rod in place of the bronze one - the problem is that the bronze rod wears on the packing).

b) The seacocks have been redesigned to use less metal, and are now DZR brass in place of gunmetal

c) The suppliers of burners for the stoves change from time to time, and so the burners are not necessarily compatible

d) The design of the pressure tank and pump for the stoves and cookers has always been rubbish, and this is something that Taylors could easily change and make cheaper - Force Ten iirc used a bicycle air valve and pump, which works much better than Taylors' Victorian leather washer and brass effort...

2. Subject to the above points, all their products are excellent and can give many decades of service. This means that they cannot seriously expect to sell many new WCs and cookers, but one can always rebuild an old one.

3. The prices they charge for spares are insane. I mean - honestly!

Blakes Lavac Taylors seem to have deliberately gone for the "nostalgia" market niche, the one once occupied by Hardly Ableson motor cycles in the 1970's - the time when an American friend described them as "hewn from the living rock by dwarves" But Hardly Ableson got themselves out of it!

 

[stuey_two]

Not just the spares, have you seen the price of a new Baby Blake?

 

[Kukri]

Not just the spares, have you seen the price of a new Baby Blake?

I have now: £3,880!!!

"Perishable spares" kit for same: £160 or so... or £200 if you own a "Victory"..

To which it is wise to add the cost of new bolts (they dezincify - don't ask me how I know that...)

 

[BabaYaga]

Blakes have pretty much given up on the problem of the top seal on the Baby and Victory flush pumps ( one suggestion, which I heard from an experienced yachtsman back in the 1970's, is to use a stainless steel rod in place of the bronze one - the problem is that the bronze rod wears on the packing).

I think the problem is the reverse – packing wears on the bronze rod. Which is more serious, as the gland nut can always be tightened up.
They actually made a redesign recently, in 1992 IIRC, when the gland nut got a rubber lip seal as a complementary, second barrier.

 

[Poignard]

It's a pricing strategy called "what the market will bear". Many a fine big yacht has been bought on the profits accruing from "what the market will bear".

 

[pvb]

They actually made a redesign recently, in 1992 IIRC,....

Only in a Blakes context could a quarter of a century be described as "recently"!

 

[Amulet]

I have a love-hate relationship with my Taylors Stove, and basically agree with you. We just came out of a period where the only burner on offer was a massive two legged thing that just didn't work. I keep the stove as I don't want gas on my wee boat, and I like to have an oven. The only good thing is that I can strip it down to it's smallest parts myself, and repair almost any failure. Some positive comments inserted below.

....c) The suppliers of burners for the stoves change from time to time, and so the burners are not necessarily compatible

The Hanse burners available from Germany work really well, but run at much lower pressure (15-20 psi)

d) The design of the pressure tank and pump for the stoves and cookers has always been rubbish, and this is something that Taylors could easily change and make cheaper - Force Ten iirc used a bicycle air valve and pump, which works much better than Taylors' Victorian leather washer and brass effort...

A tank lid with a Schraeder valve is now available for Taylors stoves. I use a bike pump all the time.

 

[Kukri]

I have a love-hate relationship with my Taylors Stove, and basically agree with you. We just came out of a period where the only burner on offer was a massive two legged thing that just didn't work. I keep the stove as I don't want gas on my wee boat, and I like to have an oven. The only good thing is that I can strip it down to it's smallest parts myself, and repair almost any failure. Some positive comments inserted below.
The Hanse burners available from Germany work really well, but run at much lower pressure (15-20 psi)A tank lid with a Schraeder valve is now available for Taylors stoves. I use a bike pump all the time.

Thanks. The Hanse burner is a big improvement, but it may be necessary to swap all three on an 030!

Can you point me to the Schrader valve tank?

I think Blakes Lavac Taylor's are a paradigm of modern British industrial management.

They have not come up with an innovation in decades, they show no interest in re-entering the mainstream market and are happy to continue selling imperfect goods at silly prices into the tiny market for nostalgia.

 

[vyv_cox]

They have not come up with an innovation in decades, they show no interest in re-entering the mainstream market and are happy to continue selling imperfect goods at silly prices into the tiny market for nostalgia.

You may remember a TV programme a decade or so ago in which a captain of industry visited various companies with the aim of assisting with streamlining, cutting out production bottlenecks and increasing profits. In all cases except one his suggestions were met with grateful thanks and implemented. He then visited Morgan Cars and went nearly apoplectic at the 1930s style production methods, which included building the chassis in one building and then using three blokes to push it from there to the body shop. The company rejected every suggestion, stating that they built their cars in that way because that was what the customers wanted.

 

[macd]

You may remember a TV programme a decade or so ago...

You seem to be operating on a Blakean time frame, Vyv. That programme (part of a fascinating series) was first aired in 1990, two years before Blake's last technological leap. Don't worry, my clock seems to work in much the same way. Sadly Sir John's stopped altogether nine years ago.

 

[BabaYaga]

assisting with streamlining, cutting out production bottlenecks and increasing profits.

Don't know how many cookers or Lavacs they produce, but for Blake sea toilets I find it hard to believe there is anything like an assembly line. More likely they are built to order, from spare parts.?

In fact, I think that is the only business model possible, for this type of product. The benefit for existing users, or for new users picking up an old unit, is that spare parts are kept available for a very long time. Although as mentioned, at a high cost.

The alternative would be worse.

 

[vyv_cox]

You seem to be operating on a Blakean time frame, Vyv. That programme (part of a fascinating series) was first aired in 1990, two years before Blake's last technological leap. Don't worry, my clock seems to work in much the same way. Sadly Sir John's stopped altogether nine years ago.

Time becomes more compressed the older I get.

 

[vyv_cox]

Don't know how many cookers or Lavacs they produce, but for Blake sea toilets I find it hard to believe there is anything like an assembly line. More likely they are built to order, from spare parts.?

In fact, I think that is the only business model possible, for this type of product. The benefit for existing users, or for new users picking up an old unit, is that spare parts are kept available for a very long time. Although as mentioned, at a high cost.

The alternative would be worse.

I read some time ago (won't attempt to guess how many years ) that an alarmingly high number of production Laval bowls is rejected and scrapped because they are insufficiently flat for the seal to bed onto for the vacuum function. Again, a most unusual business model.

 

[Kukri]

Thanks Vyv; funnily enough Morgan cars did come to mind but I had forgotten Sir John's programme.

Around the time of Blakes' last modest improvement, 25 years ago, I contracted a large ship at Harland and Wolff; we, the buyers, wanted the edges of the frames rounded off by 2mm so that our expensive epoxy paint stood a chance of adhering.

The shipyard issued hand files, not angle grinders, to their staff...

The ship was 162,500 tons, deadweight...

The British Craft Tradition at its worst...

Blakes Lavac Taylor's are the same.

 

[BabaYaga]

Blakes' last modest improvement, 25 years ago

Further to the stainless steel pump rod idea mentioned in post #1, here's another tip for a future redesign (hopefully in a couple of decades).

The bronze stirrup for the discharge pump handle broke a few years ago. I made a temporary repair during the cruise and then replaced it with a new, slightly thicker one made from stainless steel:

 

[Kukri]

Further to the stainless steel pump rod idea mentioned in post #1, here's another tip for a future redesign (hopefully in a couple of decades).

The bronze stirrup for the discharge pump handle broke a few years ago. I made a temporary repair during the cruise and then replaced it with a new, slightly thicker one made from stainless steel:

A very definite improvement!

I hope you may write to BLT with drawings!

 

[BLT]

Hi All

Just wanted to address some of the points raised on behalf of BLT.
We have had very little issues with the pump tops in recent years after the manufacturing was brought to Sea Sure in Warsash UK.
The 3/4 and the 1 /12 Seacock have been manufacturer from a DZR brass composition for a very long time now, this isn't something new. They are manufactured in the UK and each one is hand matched, tested twice prior to leaving the factory. The material was changed 20+ years ago to help stop corrosion.
The burners supplied for all the paraffin range are completely inter-changeable. I'm sure anyone who has purchased the New Hanse burner will confirm that they are far superior to the older 4 leg and 2 leg burners. The cost taken on by Hanse to do this to cater for Taylors customers is Huge.
The pump for the pressure tank has now reverted back to the pump top with bike valve.
The Only reason we advertise and still manufacture the end products is to reassure people that there are still spares available for the 1000's of units brought over the decades. The number of new units made is very low however we still have customers from around the world who order new units. Due to the low number sold, the price of the units looks high from the outside, however to manufacture most of the components in the systems requires extremely high cost materials and a lot of time. The bowl that is hand made for the baby and victory takes over 2 days to manufacture, and even then it can quite easily crack during the oven process (around 50%). We wouldn't want to manufacture it any other way but this has to be factored in to costing. The hand made toilet seat and lid is manufactured by the same company that custom manufactures the toilet seats for the royal family. again the seat and lid take over 2 days to manufacture. A growing part of the business is renovation of old product. We can make a Blakes head look brand new for a % of the cost of a new head and it will continue to go for another 40 years like most do.
Due to the materials, time, and volume the spares are increasing in cost. When you consider that a Blakes head is £4000 + a £200 spares kit to keep it going for another 10 years is extremely good value.
We are extremely proud that we continue to manufacture Blakes Taylors in the UK and hope that we have answered some of your questions.


All the best

 

[ghostlymoron]

Good to hear from the manufacturer. Blake's heads and Taylor stoves/heaters are premium products and some people are willing to pay the premium prices that go with them.

 

[macd]

The 3/4 and the 1 /12 Seacock have been manufacturer from a DZR brass composition for a very long time now....The material was changed 20+ years ago to help stop corrosion.

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond, BLT.

The quote I've taken out is intrigueing. The received public wisdom seacocks is that the material was changed from bronze to DZR brass several decades ago. This seems not to tally with the observation that it was done "to help stop corrosion", unless another material was used between bronze and DZR. Can you shed any more light on the materials used over time? If you are also able to state precisely when the change of material was made, this would be of interest to many with Blakes seacocks.

 

[BLT]

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond, BLT.

The quote I've taken out is intrigueing. The received public wisdom seacocks is that the material was changed from bronze to DZR brass several decades ago. This seems not to tally with the observation that it was done "to help stop corrosion", unless another material was used between bronze and DZR. Can you shed any more light on the materials used over time? If you are also able to state precisely when the change of material was made, this would be of interest to many with Blakes seacocks.

It is hard to say as all of these changes were make well prior to Sea Sure taking on BLT. Looking back through the historic drawings the material was DZR1 as far back as 1991. We don't have any drawings previous to this so it is hard to pin point a date as to when the change was. I would like to be able to give you more information as to when the change was and the full reasoning behind it however this information has been lost over time. Our last original Blakes employee retired this year after 30 years with the company however he worked within a different division so also didn't know this information.
Our plans for next year is to update the BLT website so that all of this type of information is available as we know there are many people out there who are interested int he product and its history.

BLT