Bilge Keel and long passages

[Mhvoiceuk]

I've just been reading the review of the new Sadler 290 in PBO. It looks the ideal boat for someone like me who is newish to sailing, has a young family and a drying mooring. This boat would (for me) be a big investment, but hopefully could serve for many years - it looks as tough as old boots. Is it possible to make succesful long passages in a bilge leeker? Are modern twin keel designs going to avoid drift and give stability in big seas? The 290 certainly looks impressive

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[webcraft]

Don't know if I'd want to make long passages in a bilge leeker . . .

A friend crossed the Atlantic in a bilge keeled Westerly Merlin, and Shane Acton sailed an 18ft plywood bilge keeler round the world (Shrimpy)

You can do anything if you want to enough. If you think the boat is ideal for your current circumstances then buy it . . . a couple of seasons will let you know if this is the boat you want to cross oceans in. It will certainly be capable of it with the right skipper.

- Nick


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[andy_wilson]

Long passages

I'm not sure any type of keel is suitable for long passages to windward if that is what you were getting at by 'drift'.

If however you intend following the more conventional trans-oceanic sailing routes, then many bilge keel yacht have made their way across the Atlantic and around the world.

The Westerly Fulmar comes to mind, longer but about the same effective space as the Sadler.

On the thought of living aboard something that size for those sort of prolonged passages with a young family, I suggest not good.

If however your idea of long passages are from the S. coast to Normandy/Brittany, or from the E. coast to Holland or even Tha Baltic, that sounds much more sensible.

I'm sure the Sadler will be adequately stable in big seas. Most sailors are amazed at the amount of surplus buoyancy when faced with seas that dwarf the hull.

It's the short steep ones that tend to cause the pain in my opinion... 'specially when going to windward, which is more or less where I started.

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[l'escargot]

What is your definition of "long passages"?

New to sailing and a young family - there was a time when I considered 3 hours was a long passage. Puking SWMBO, screaming child, puking screaming peeing dog, oh the joy of family sailing.

A Sadler could be a good investment and more than adequate, but probably not for a live aboard or backwards and forwards across Biscay.

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[Mhvoiceuk]

Sorry for being vague about "long passage". I was think more of round Britain or France than round the world - certainly not more than a few weeks on board. Not knowing much about hull and keel design I was wondering if there are types of sailing that twin keels can't really do - that the trade off for being able to get into shallow water and having an upright boat is that you will roll about more in a difficult sea.

Interesting that none of you think that a boat this length is suitable for living aboard (I can see why you would say so). I recently read the Pardey's book about eleven year livings aboard 24' Serrafyn. They feel that anything over 30' is unnecessary and too costly.

Thanks for the replies.

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[Robin]

The Pardeys were just two on board though, no young family as you mentioned. Also there boat is very much a one-off special built around their special needs (I have met the Pardeys and been on board Serrafyn when they were in England a year or so back). You CAN live on any size you chose, what you would WANT to live on for more than short cruises in good weather is something different I think.

Bilge keels are fine for drying out (though when I had them years back I hated drying out) but little else IMO, you will lose performance and slam upwind in any seas. But for fine summer sailing around the UK and France they will suffice and allow you into some nice places those of us with deep keels cannot easily venture.

In an ideal world your choice of boat should be made by its suitability for your planned usage, rather than to fit your existing mooring. Trouble is the world is not ideal and a deep mooring may be unavailable or too expensive!

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[Miquel_Culzean]

Have a 26', and do coastal navigation in North Sea, Oosterschelde and Mediterranean.

We are a maximum of 2 adults and 4 chidren (summer), for 15 days in a row. The children are 2 of 12 and 2 of 8.

Up to now, we survive well, and we amuse ourselves a lot. It's a small space, but curiosly, they behave much better in the boat than when we are all at home.

fair winds,

Miquel.
Culzean



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[AndrewB]

Bilge keelers are go-anywhere boats, there should be no problems on that score. They are rarely quite as fast as equivalent fin-keelers, but that is not a factor if you don't intend to race. Some bilge-keelers have a tendancy to 'slam' in big seas - they get air trapped between the keels as they drop off big waves. It's not really a serious fault, and the number of times one encounters such seas are rare.

A boat like this sounds a very good first choice. For a first-time boat though, I'd buy one two or three years old rather than new. It will be properly kitted out unlike manufacturers 'sailaway' models, it won't hurt so much when, as is likely, you ding it a little, and most important of all, you won't lose too much when you sell it after a year of two, as you undoubtedly will as your ideas about the type of boat you want change.

 

[Gunfleet]

My longest passage is Brighton to St Malo in a 24 ft bilge keeler - probably 200 miles with a crew of 2 over 2 days. Absolutely no problem - however, I wouldn't have wanted small children with us. THeir demands are a bit 'time specific'. I want my dinner and I want it now! A larger boat would give you a bit more leeway, as would breaking the trip down into stages. Brighton to CHerbourg I've done in a bilge-keeler too, and that's not quite 24 hours. Best of luck
John

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[chriscallender]

There aren't really any types of sailing like this that a bilge keeler can't do - Ellen Mcarthur I believe sailed around Britain in a 22 foot bilge keeler when she was about 18, there is a chapter or two on that in her book.

Like others have suggested windward performance may not be quite so good - so it will take you a bit longer to reach upwind targets. Handling of a difficult sea depends on a whole load of things more than just keel configuration so a light fin keeler of length X could well be a lot less comfortable than a heavy displacement bilge keeler. As you say the benefit is you can go places that you wouldn't in a fin keel.

In something like round Britain or Frace you are doing mainly costal sailing so really difficult seas are usually avoided by checking the weather forecasts and staying put if the weather is duff - accuracy for 12-24 hours is pretty good normally depsite threads here about a storm last week that never materialised! Difficult seas are wet, uncomfortable and not much fun so always best avoided!

As to living on board do you want the home comforts? If you want hot water, shower, TV, fridge, microwave, central hearting, lots of storage then it needs a big boat and these comforts are more important in Uk/France than warmer climates. But if you are happy with more like outdoor/camping lifestyle then a small boat can offer that! I think peoples expections on comfort/lifestyle have probably gone up since the Pardey's set off but that doesn't mean its impossible to live a more basic lifestyle. It just comes down to what you want out of life and how much you want to pay to get it. It is also true to say that you need a lot more in a cold European climate than you would in a tropical climate for comfort.


Chris

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[jleaworthy]

Agree with the comments concerning seaworthiness and windward ability of twin keel boats. I would simply add that for the sailing you plan - around Britain and France you will find many small drying harbours which are often very convenient to use providing you can take the ground. Twin keelers are generally no problem particularly if you have bolt-on iron keels so that you aren't worried about grinding away the bottom of encapsulated keels. Single keelers can be dodgy leaning against a wall if one is free, unless you know exactly what the bottom is like.

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[seaesta]

I would not have anything other than a bilge keeler. I have sailed my 25 footer from Waterford to Inverness and most points between - including trans pennine on the Leeds Liverpool and cross Country on the Forth and Clyde. It is much less worrying if you can safely "take ground" in a strange harbour and remain upright.
I agree with other posters about getting an older boat - it helps if others have put the first scratches on her!

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[Ohdrat]

Re sailing and Bilge keelers there are good (Sadler) and bad (Macwester) sailboats..

Sadler 29 is a sturdy boat and the bilge keel version (they come with a fin keel too) will not sail badly and probably a lot better than some other fin keelers!

So yes I would say that for a family this is a good option.

 

[l'escargot]

Most people would find 29' ok for weeks, but probably not months. British/French sailing your longest passage would probably be cross channel at 14/16 hours, most would be considerably shorter. It is unlikely that you would be caught out to the extent of big seas for long periods or long beats unless you were careless. Bilge keels would be the better option - you want to cruise not race and there is no greater advantage in the circumstances you describe by having a fin keel. Far more places will be available with the shallower draft and the ability to dry out.

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[Jacket]

People are just getting soft. It wasn't that long ago that people took there whole families on 2 week summer cruises in a folkboat (And in Sweden they still seem to!).

I spent 3 months 3 up on a 24 foot boat, and would do it again. The trick is, if bad weather is forcast, try and be near a town, rather than anchored in the middle of nowhere, so that you could escape.

And bear in mind that the Sadler290 has as much room down below as many 32 and 34 yachts.

It sounds a perfect boat for what you want. A modern bilge keeler will go to windward as well as many older fin keelers, and lets you get into all the interesting harbours that are closed to us one leggers.

If you do get a Sadler290, I'll be jealous!

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[Mhvoiceuk]

Thanks for the wealth of replies. I don't know if I'l be looking at the Sadler 290 this year due to pennies but the review was pretty amazing and the speeds, for a 29' bilge keel cruiser, fairly remarkable - 8.5 to 9.5 knots downwind from 15 to 25 knots of wind and 6 to 7 knots upwind.
Will keep an eye. my guess is that they will hold their value and be kept for quite some time so I wonder whether it will be some years before the new Sadlers pop up regularly second hand. Also 6'3'' of headroom and 6 berths very nice too. I looked at the boat show and the only other thing that really fitted my bill was a Jeanneau 32.

Thanks again for all of your views.

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[Indalo]

I looked at this boat at So'ton and read the recent PBO review. It's just got RCD category A, & looks as if it should definitely make long passages - all depends on the amount of comfort you want. I sail a Mirage 2700 bilge-keeler that I'm planning to do a round-Britain trip with next year, with mix of single-handing and fairly experienced crew members; maximum passage will probably be about 18hrs / 100 miles, maybe more with a crew & if we feel up to it. In my view the real advantage of twin keels (why are they called 'bilge by the way if the bilge is in the middle?) is being able to pull in at little ports like Mousehole or on the beach in the Scilly Isles and stay there without too much to worry about. The longest single passage I've done so far is 90M, & sea state 'rough' / F6 - handles safely though rolls a bit. The Sadler is definitely on my list if I decide to invest more in a new boat.

I can't comment on the small family aspect - I would guess it depends on what they expect and are prepared to put up with!

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