Big rig for little winds

[dancrane]

Just in case my insurer is reading this, I'd like to stress that I'm asking the question on behalf of a friend...

Has anybody any experience of switching their rig, for a substantially taller one?

It's actually an old tedious obsession of mine, about with the sleepy performance most boats deliver in less than seven or eight knots of wind.

My pal has a keelboat of similar-to-Soling proportions, and his invariable crew is a girl who resolutely won't go out in more than a force two. He'd like to treble his sail area to liven up the slow days.

Is the additional weight aloft, and slightly different position of the centre of effort, likely to be catastrophic to the average fin keeler's performance? He'd be happy to spend the chilly seasons adjusting and modifying, and he has the cash to splash on some decent 2nd hand kit.

My pal's boat isn't unusually tender and certainly is a bit of a slug. I have an idea the current mast and sails aren't the originals. I'm guessing the fractional rig from something like a Sigma 33 would make sailing her in a single-figure breeze, much more involving. Terrifying in fact, but not dull.

Bad idea, or not?

 

[Simondjuk]

One word. Gusts.

 

[William_H]

Larger rig

I think that it would be beneficial to have a larger rig on a lot of boats. You do have to be proactive in reefing and jib changing but it does liven up the performance in light winds.
One popular type of boat here called a Spacesailer 22 has mast head rrig. A friend built up one with a larger fractional rig with great success except they would not let him race in the class.
My own little boat (21ft) has quite a large mainsail for its weight and size. Last Sunday we did a race of about 2.5 hours. We set off in gusty winds on the nose to sail to the race area with no 4 smallest jib. Changed to a newer no 3 for the start and found after first leg that a Viking 30 and Spacesailer 24 had got away from us. We managed to keep the position in the spin leg and took the opportunity to put no 2 jib on. Wind seemed to be abating. No position change by the end of the second windward leg but near the end of the second spin run crew were willing (keen) to change to no 1 genoa jib. What a great decision as the wind dropped and we walked past the 24 and then 30 to win fastest be several minutes. On talking to them later they did not make the effort to change jibs. Nobody races seriously with furling jibs.
So yes a classic example of having the right amount of sail and the flexibility to reduce sail to match the conditions.
Gusts? correct sail area on a ballasted monohull should do no more than cause you to lean and release sheets. Tell your friend to go for it I am all in favour of redesigning stock boats. There is so much compromise in boat design. olewill

 

[charles_reed]

I had a fatigue failure of my mast and my then insurers declined to honour their obligations, I had the mast-manufacturers work out the replacement from base-information, which resulted in a mast 0.85m taller and 44% greater in cross-sectional area.

The fully battened main I had made for this mast, for use in the Med, has a 23% greater area than the original and the fairly aggressive roach overlaps the backstay, by about 450mm.

I find that going to windward at about mid F3 I need to put in the first of 4 reefs, but I've worked my way from Crete, against the meltemi, through Dodecanese and Cyclades without any problem just this year.

Gusts are a problem in the Med - especially sailing between islands - and a single-line reefing system does help considerably - as does eschewing overlapping genoas in for a solent or working jib.
As to light-air performance she'll keep steerage way in 3 knots of wind (about 1.8-2.2 through water) despite the handicap of considerable wetted area due to a very wide wing keel.

As for crew who don't like wind, leave them ashore..

PS I'm not talking about racing here - a taller rig will give you such an handicap that, if you want to remain competitive, you're better off without.

 

[dt4134]

It'll be easier to buy a boat that is designed for a bigger rig.

It's not just sail area, it's weight and drag from the keel too.

 

[AliM]

I think your friend needs to ask himself why his crew won't go out in more than a F2. Is it because she doesn't like going fast, or because she doesn't like it when the boat heels? If so, increasing the sail area, especially in a boat not really designed for the bigger rig, is likely to increase the angle of heel and increase the speed, thus defeating the object.

 

[RobinBirch]

Easier and cheaper to change the girlfriend.

 

[RobbieH]

The fully battened main I had made for this mast, for use in the Med, has a 23% greater area than the original and the fairly aggressive roach overlaps the backstay, by about 450mm.

How does that work when you tack? Do you have to slack off the backstay each time?

I had a new main made for my boat and the sailmaker gave it too much roach up close to the masthead. The leech used to hang up on the backstay (backstays actually) in light winds. I got him to recut a little - I lost a tiny bit of area but I don't worry about chafe or it "looking wrong" any more.

 

[V1701]

Has your friend tried a spinnaker, cruising chute?

 

[neil_s]

The builder offered a tall rig option for the Seal 28 back in the 70/80's. The tall mast was about 2 feet longer then the standard - I wish I had it!

Neil

 

[zarathustra]

I seem to recall an article in PBO last summer about a boat called ministrone, a 24 fter if I recall correct, from memory they put a mast from a bigger yacht onto it, making the rig 3 foot taller. The yachts mast they chose was a popular boat model so made it easier to pick up used sails. My recollection is the boat owner was delighted with light airs performance and was looking to add a code zero to his wardrobe.

 

[r_h]

I seem to recall an article in PBO last summer about a boat called ministrone, a 24 fter if I recall correct, from memory they put a mast from a bigger yacht onto it, making the rig 3 foot taller. The yachts mast they chose was a popular boat model so made it easier to pick up used sails. My recollection is the boat owner was delighted with light airs performance and was looking to add a code zero to his wardrobe.

That was me

The new (fractional) rig is 3 metres taller than the original masthead, with a mainsail of double the area, although the non-overlapping headsails are somewhat smaller than the original IOR genoas.

It's great in light airs, and when off the wind in more of a breeze. The mast is fairly flexible, so it readily responds to backstay tension to increase bend and depower the sail.

I've come across a number of other people who have also successfully increased sail area to improve light weather performance (albeit by a much smaller amount) but it's important to be able to stay in control when the wind pipes up - that may well mean upgrading deck gear, and requires a crew that know what they are doing.

Feel free to ask if you have any specific questions.

 

[Searush]

Convert to gaff rig, with an optional jackyard topsail for light weather. Might get a fair bit of lee helm if you don't move the mast forward or keel back.

 

[chrisedwards]

Convert to gaff rig, with an optional jackyard topsail for light weather. Might get a fair bit of lee helm if you don't move the mast forward or keel back.

Got to chip in here - convert to junk rig is more appropriate. I am in the process of nearly doubling my sail area to over 700 sq ft on a 28 ft boat - nothing compared to the Pardys who could fly 1000 sq ft.

One of the key advantages of the junk rig over all others is the ability to instantly control the sails. If I see a squall I will drop from 750 sq ft to storm canvas when it reaches the bow. Sails reef down and balance stays the same regardless of size of reef.

 

[flaming]

Convert to gaff rig, with an optional jackyard topsail for light weather.

Yes, when it gets light we're just blown out of the water by the gaffers.....

I think the key thing is not to go OTT with upping light weather canvas. I'd reccomend getting someone who is known as good in light winds to sail with you first, as there are many aspects of rig tuning that can transform light winds performance, without going to the cost of a new mast and sails. The other thing worth mentioning is aspect ratio. It's far better to go for as high aspect ratio as possible, as keeping the flow attached over a low aspect ratio sail is harder in the light. So for the same area, far better to be tall and skinny.

 

[chrisedwards]

Yes, when it gets light we're just blown out of the water by the gaffers.....

I think the key thing is not to go OTT with upping light weather canvas. I'd reccomend getting someone who is known as good in light winds to sail with you first, as there are many aspects of rig tuning that can transform light winds performance, without going to the cost of a new mast and sails. The other thing worth mentioning is aspect ratio. It's far better to go for as high aspect ratio as possible, as keeping the flow attached over a low aspect ratio sail is harder in the light. So for the same area, far better to be tall and skinny.

only when hard on the wind? - off the wind low aspect better?

 

[flaming]

only when hard on the wind? - off the wind low aspect better?

Don't think so, as it's still flow that's important. If the apparent wind is low, then keeping the flow of air attached all the way across a "fat" sail is much harder. Hence spinnakers designed for use in very light conditions are actually smaller and flatter than the ones designed for a nice force 3-4.

This of course assumes that you are sailing in the most efficient manor and sailing the angles downwind, rather than just trying to go DDW in drifting conditions.

 

[dancrane]

Thank you, all.

It certainly had occurred to me that surface-friction means there's often substantially more movement of air, just a few feet higher off the water.

Re. Gusts: my mate with the keelboat concerned, had heard of an absurdly oversized sailplan on a Folkboat, fitted with halyards that were part shockcord, part very light non-stretching line; the non-stretch allowed sufficient luff-tension, but would simply snap in a gust, and the shock-cord allowed the sail to fly 'loose' without causing capsize or collapse. He'd never seen it in use...

While I'm a sucker for gaff rig, I'm not sure my mate would readily take on the weight and complexity of spars and halyards aloft, if a taller Marconi rig would still allow use of his existing sails, and bigger ones when he felt the day permitted.

Junk rig. Fascinating idea, Mr Scaramanga. I'm just wondering why such an effective and easily handled rig, isn't more often seen in the west. It can't be much less efficient than some of the sad, sloopy set-ups on boats I've seen in the Channel.