Big bang, or bit by bit?

Danny Jo

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What is the best strategy for replacing electronic equipment nearing the end of its life?

The 19 year old Philips AP navigator still delivers accurate GPS data to the other instruments and has working alarm functions (depth, proximity, etc). But I have given up trying to use it for waypoint routing because it has a glitch that seems to add around 8200 nm to every route. (The distance and bearing for each leg is calculated accurately, but it persists in telling me that at 5 kt I will take around 6 weeks to cover 30 miles.) The fluxgate compass, B&G instruments and autopilot continue to work almost faultlessly (many of the diplays are partly obscured by condensation). The Raytheon R10X rasterscan radar works after a fashion, but is a pig to use, is far from clear, and cannot be rearranged to be visible from the cockpit. Also I suspect that the cathode ray tube display uses more current than modern ones.

The thought of trying to integrate a replacement GPS receiver with the other instruments brings me out in a cold sweat. There seems to me to be a serious risk of a domino effect. I can just hear the man at the supplier saying "You want to integrate it with THAT old thing?"

I don't really want a chartplotter (or putting it another way, I cannot really afford to pay for electronic charts as well as the paper ones without which I won't put to sea) but it seems that I must have one if I want to replace the radar.

Is a phased approach to replacement of obsolete instruments an practicable option? And if I can't get the Huson 150 SSB transceiver to work (and no manual is available) should I just chuck it?
 

Twister_Ken

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Get rid of that lot and she'd float well above her marks!

I'm still a pencil & dividers man myself, but I suspect that modern kit from a single supplier who undertook to make it all talk to each other and left you with nothing to do but press the power button would be best.

You can get radar-only displays, but in these days of multi-function displays, I guess the question is why. One combined radar/plotter, one tridata instrument for speed and depth, one wind whirlygig thingummy, one DSC VHF plumbed into the plotter and one AIS engine (ditto) and Robert is your parent's sibling.

Hopefully it won't go off with a big bang.
 

jamesjermain

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I guess the answer ultimately depends on how much money you have to spend.

You can replace instruments individually but, interfacing them with older models may be a nightmare. Replacing the whole lot with a fully compatible system from one manufacturer is ultimately the best solution but a lot more expensive.

The other problem is, if you want a complete set, including radar, from one manufacturer, Raymarine is about your only option. I have nothing against Raymarine, far from it, but it would be nice to have a bit of a wider choice.

It might be worth considering a set of Tacktick sailing instruments, which are very easy to retrofit as they use a radio link rather than wires (particularly useful for the masthead unit) plus their NMEA interface box to the nav instruments (fluxgate, GPS, plotter/radar) of your choice.
 

Talulah

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Personally a lot may depend on asthetics.
You may make a new panel to replace an existing where you have removed an old instrument and replaced it with new. The new one having a different opening. Not to replace it would leave gaping holes. However, you would still mount your other old instruments on the old panel and would have to repeat the process everytime you added a new piece of kit.
Maybe you should consider wether you really do need some of the equipment.
i.e. We used to have a separate gps and radar in the cockpit. We now have a chartplotter where the gps used to be and subsequently the radar was replaced to one that overlays on the chart plotter. result is a lot less clutter. However, recently we fitted AIS and having fitted AIS I can tell you that I would no longer bother fitting radar. Hence maybe you could ask yourself wether or not you really do need to replace all the gizmos at once or start off with just the basics again.
 

pvb

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You forgot about...

[ QUOTE ]
The other problem is, if you want a complete set, including radar, from one manufacturer, Raymarine is about your only option. I have nothing against Raymarine, far from it, but it would be nice to have a bit of a wider choice.

[/ QUOTE ]Think you forgot about Simrad and Navman!
 

Koeketiene

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Re: You forgot about...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The other problem is, if you want a complete set, including radar, from one manufacturer, Raymarine is about your only option. I have nothing against Raymarine, far from it, but it would be nice to have a bit of a wider choice.

[/ QUOTE ]Think you forgot about Simrad and Navman!

[/ QUOTE ]

Or Furuno
 

ShipsWoofy

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If I was starting over, I might also look closely at the garmin system that integrates into a single screen, I don't know how it compares to the competition, but it must be worth a look.

p.s. If you remove the compass and wish to offset your costs (a little bit) I may be interested, if it has NMEA of course??
 

Danny Jo

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Many thanks, Twister_Ken, JJ, and others for some useful advice and food for thought. I obtained a recommendation for a supplier of advice (and instruments) from a previous thread and got this advice from a very helpful person (whom I won't name in case it embarrasses him):

"Hi Mark, thanks email - No easy answer but I will try to help.
B&G instruments that are working I would keep. B&G with condensation - firstly I would try and get repaired ie new Seals, If Not obvious answer is to replay with new B&G instruments to match (to some extent) the old instruments that are working , but B&G are expensive instruments to buy so a repair is worth considering.

"Philips GPS - dispose of - you also mention Raytheon Radar playing up - I would seriously suggest you consider replaying with a new Raymarine Chartplotter/Radar/GPS system or Garmin who have a special offer at moment. Cost would be in region of £2k. You could also consider a Simrad CX44 system which are pretty closely matched to B&G. Cost though for radar/Chartplotter system would be approx £2500.

"PS - You can not buy stand alone radar systems from Raymarine now - its a chartplotter/radar system.

"Huson 150 SSB - I would remove. Do you really require a SSB sytem onboard now? - it could be expensive to get an Engineer in to repair a old radio which I would not recommend. To replace with a new SSB from Icom would
cost £2000 to replace although fitting some simply satellite system might be better for a similiar price.

"To get started at minimum cost you should consider buying a Raymarine C70/C80 chartplotter display with GPS for say between £700 to £1000 which would then get you going with a GPS system but can then be upgraded with a radar at a later date as its not really worth spending any money on your
existing CRT radar."

This seems to me just the sort of advice we need (but don't always get) from equipment suppliers. PM me if you would like the company's name.

The points are well made about how many gizmos I really need, and whether, in the days of AIS, radar is still a necessity for cruisers. As regards the radar, I believed it was a luxury until the night I found myself off Start Point in the middle of a fishing fleet, in fog. I could tell exactly how far off Start Point I was, er, for starters. And being able to get a range and bearing on what may or may not have been a vessel's light spotted on the starboard bow is very reassuring. On the minus side, I haven't found it much use as an aid to avoiding collisions with larger, faster vessels, but I have put that down to the lack of sophistication in my current CRT display. Would AIS be a satisfactory replacement? Great for big vessels, but I'm not sure how many fishing vessels use it, and cliffs and large rocks certainly don't.

If I don't replace the radar, is AIS the only reason to go for an expensive chartplotter rather than a cheaper GPS display? The instrument I have used most for passage making over the last 2000 miles is my handheld GPS12XL. The advantages are that it is relatively cheap to replace, I can find my way round its menus in my sleep, I can work on it while at the wheel, and take it home to enter waypoints for the next trip. However, there are important disadvantages (setting aside the annoyance of finding that the GPS12 bought as a backup won't fit the same power cable/PC link, and the machine's hunger for AA batteries). Firstly, while the keys and display may be waterproof, the battery compartment certainly isn't, and a sheet of spray into the cockpit has me hurrying to find something to dry it off with. Secondly, if there are traces of corrosion on the battery terminals the machine is prone to switching off unexpectedly. Thirdly, the entry of waypoint names is laborious and limited to 6 characters. I want to establish a rather bigger library of waypoints and routes than the Garmin 12XL can handle (i.e. waypoints and routes have used and can trust, like the ones that got us through Donaghadee Sound in the fog).

So the functional priorities are:
1. GPS data for the ship's log, chartwork and to feed other instruments, including the DSC VHF
2. Fluxgate compass data for cockpit (and ideally chart table) displays of heading, and derived True wind speed and direction
3. Waypoint and routing information, course over ground etc, available at the helm
4. AIS display, visible from the helm.
5. Radar information, visible from the helm.

My current system is delivering on priorities 1 and 2 satisfactorily. Priority 3 is delivered by the handheld GPS, but only at a rather primitive level. Priorities 4 and 5 are merely aspirations.

All of this suggests a number of options:

Option 1 - settle for prioties 1-3, seek new seals for B&G instruments, leave current integrated system alone and install stand-alone fixed cockpit GPS. Advantages - low cost, little danger of having stuff nicked, no crawling around trying to trace wiring. Downside - no AIS, having to sit in wind and rain entering waypoint data, uncertainty about remaining useful life of existing gear.

Option 2 - build new integrated system with a view to adding priority 4 (AIS). Seek new seals for B&G instruments, rip out (sorry, carefully remove for sale on eBay, or, er, Sailroom) Philips AP Navigator, install suitable chartplotter and AIS either in a position viewable from cockpit and chart table or at chart table with repeater visible from helm, and retain existing radar pending later decision on whether AIS is adequate substitute. Advantages - greatly improved priority 3 functionality, provides foundation for subsequent replacement of worn-out components, provides much-needed AIS data, and is cheaper than replacing both navigator and radar. Downside - cost.

Option 3 - win the lottery and get a man in to replace the lot.

(Dogwatch - Freestyle's fluxgate compass will be the last to go - its accuracy never ceases to amaze me.
 

akirk

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In concept AIS is an obvious replacement for radar - it is radar with the ability to see details against each item you see...

however... it is not at all uncommon for vessels to turn off their AIS (e.g. fishermen not wanting to reveal where they are fishing), for vessels to be indicated as anchored when they are now moving... etc.

I would see AIS as an everyday tool, however for times such as those you mention, radar adds an additional dimension...
 
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