best timings round lands end and the lizard from the north?

[steve yates]

I was intending to go down to milford haven on wed and sail my boat up to cardiff to be lifted out and trucked over to essex after the weekend, but now the forecast looks like pretty consistent nw to w winds I'm seriously thinking I may as well just go ahead and sail her, as long as get her to brighton or nearby by the following wed, she is only 3 days away from her essex yard.

All my pilot books and almanacs etc are on the boat tho, and I'm at work in cumbria, so can anyone give me an idea of what the best timings to be arriving off cape cornwall and rounding lands end are? relative to dover hw? and any passage advice and can it be timed to get a lift across and past the lizard too, or is it better to go into newlyn and take the lizard fresh as a separate stage?

The winds look like being fresh 5-6, are there overfalls off lands end to avoid in those winds? or is the lizard worse ? Is 3 miles out enough to clear them if they are? or is best to stay really close in?

Thanks.

 

[jdc]

It isn't that good going S and E round the land I'm afraid. The tide runs against you for 9 out of 12 hours, so I've found it best to approach the land as the tide turns in my favour, but then it will have turned contrary before one gets near the Lizard: you just have to accept poor progress for a bit. But it's generally possible to make (slow) progress against the tide when rounding the Lizard.

Tide at Lands End is S going from HW Falmouth +1 to HW Falmouth +4, and E going off lizard from HW Falmouth -3 to HW Falmouth +3, so you can see that if you arrive at L.E. at HW ish, then it will be against you in only 3 hours, whereas the Lizard is some 30 odd miles, so ~6 hrs, away. Not a lot to do about this! Fight the tide in Mounts bay where it's weak and as I said, to begin with as one approaches Lizard is all one can do.

I'd go outside Longships, and well (1.5 miles) S of Lizard. On no account try to round Lizard too close unless you really know the waters! Overfalls not too bad in F5 to 6 really: they are of course there but it's not like the Mull of Kintyre! Trouble with going further S off the Lizard is that there are lots of ships.

 

[steve yates]

thanks jdc, I'll be pretty tired by the time i round lands end from milford haven, so will prob be happy to anchor off mousehole or go into newlyn for a sleep, and take the lizard in a separate step then.

 

[aquaplane]

I'd go outside Longships, and well (1.5 miles) S of Lizard. On no account try to round Lizard too close unless you really know the waters! Overfalls not too bad in F5 to 6 really: they are of course there but it's not like the Mull of Kintyre! Trouble with going further S off the Lizard is that there are lots of ships.

On the 2 times I have been round the Lizard the instructor insisted we stood 3 miles off due to the competent crew candidate being frit. It was a pussycat. There were ships though. Not at all like the MoK.

 

[zoidberg]

There's sound guidance in Reeds Nautical Almanac and in Mark Fishwick's 'West Country Cruising' Companion'... and a G'search will find them.

'....west of the Lizard's no place for a small boat, come the end of August....' https://tinyurl.com/y6vfgo38

It won't have escaped attention that it is now mid-November.

Several good authorities recommend passing adequately west of the turmoil around Longships and its multiple outliers, and 3 miles clear south of The Lizard, for 'a good offing'. There are plenty of ships on the bottom near both that didn't achieve that, for one reason or another. The tide atlases give an indication of the broadbrush flow of streams but NOT the swirling, changing detail on the day.

In event of a problem, a good offing buys you time.

Edit: You may find advantage in speaking with the several NCI Watch Stations down around your major headlands, on Ch 65, for 'Falmouth Coastguard' is now at Fareham.....

 

[DuncanHall]

The Lizzard is much more challenging than Lands End. Do not attempt to come in nearer than 3 miles south of the Lizzard. Stopping off at Newlyn or Penzance is to be recommended. That way you will be fresh and can get your timings right for favorable tides.

 

[Daydream believer]

When I went round Uk I had no charts for Lands End so I went into a local pub at Newlyn to ask some fishermen for advice about the inshore route.
When i asked about currents, one fisherman said, " I've been fishing here for 30 years & I still have not worked out the tides through there. Just go"

When I asked about pilotage I was told " if you see a rock do not hit it. Otherwise you are Ok if you keep well in"
Actually that second piece of advice was Ok because close in there is loads of depth & the rocks stand fairly well upright.
Navigation is dead easy because one just follows the land . From memory I was about 1/4 mile off most of the time, might have been less.
So I would go for the inshore passage & save a few miles & get it over & done with.

Must admit that the Lizard surprised me how choppy it was even if fairly light winds.
I would agree with the advice to rest at Newlyn on the way round, if only to get tidal times right.

 

[jdc]

The Lizzard is much more challenging than Lands End. Do not attempt to come in nearer than 3 miles south of the Lizzard...

I've been sailing there for the best part of 30 years and amongst the 100 or so times I've rounded Lizard there have been both W and E gales but I've never bothered to go as far as 3 miles off. It may depend how sea-kindly your boat is I suppose, but assuming only F5-6 I think the OP might dare to go a bit closer, but of course it's his choice alone.

 

[jdc]

... for 'Falmouth Coastguard' is now at Fareham.....

Err, no it isn't. The responsibility for handling EPIRB activations outside UK waters, eg the from the S Atlantic, or medical emergencies, has transferred, but not the CG officers who remain very competent and helpful.

And what would you ask NCI Bass point for anyway? Advice (which they aren't allowed to give ) from someone with no particular quals, for a subjective assessment of sea state (provided it's not dark)?

 

[lpdsn]

Even once you've worked out the ideal time to round Land's End your chances of hitting that time after setting out from Milford Haven (or wherever you are at the moment) are pretty slim.

I was once about 12 hours & 40 mins late (from much further north) and got the tides for each headland all the way up to the Solent. I'll not have that luck again. Usually it's a case of just getting around when you get there, so work out a strategy based on the hour of arrival.

 

[lw395]

There's sound guidance in Reeds Nautical Almanac and in Mark Fishwick's 'West Country Cruising' Companion'... and a G'search will find them.

'....west of the Lizard's no place for a small boat, come the end of August....' https://tinyurl.com/y6vfgo38

It won't have escaped attention that it is now mid-November.
.........

I think many of us on here have boats larger than what Mr Fishwick means by small.
ISTR it's in the context of more traditional boats too?

I'd like to think the 'best' route might involve a short stay in Scilly....
But realistically, picking your weather and getting on with it are going to be key.

 

[bristoljim]

In daylight nothing wrong with the passage inside the longships & there is a detail chart of the lizard which makes it easy for the inshore passage, at least there was one on a laptop nav package.

Jim

 

[fisherman]

If you leave Newlyn for the Lizard it is possible, but not from Penzance which opens too late for the flood at the Lizard. In any S through W to N winds there is nowhere to hide in the ebb at the Lizard....or the flood if S through to E. You can pick up the S-going flood just off Mullion at LW - 1hr, but you still hit the ebb until LW+3 at the point. Seems like leaving Newlyn at LW-1or2 would be good, there is little tide in the bay. If you can just see the Black head (first thing to appear)outside of Bass Point you will hit the end rock. If you can see Enys head, which is between Cadgwith and the Black head and is a dead straight 40deg slope you are fine. Any overfalls, yes, go off 2nm.
View Enys and Bass Point from the other way
https://www.google.co.uk/search?biw...cV5ps#imgrc=VNigq2f7bxz9lM:&spf=1510051273026

 

[Gwylan]

Really would go for the inside passage. Much shorter and not quite as bad as it is implied.

There are worse - you have come down the Welsh coast, past the Lleyn and negotiated Skomer etc.

You can take a break at St Ives, though it can get bumpy if you choose the wrong spot to anchor.
But you can then make a much better prediction of your arrival time at The Brisons and then get the best of the tide around the end.
Pass Kettle Bottom to starboard and close to the Armed Knight on Port in 14+ metres.
After that Robert is your mother's brother.

In my opinion, Runnel Stones needs more care and you have to decide your route - inside or out.
Manage your expectations of Penzance.

Sadly my little book of cribs is on the boat, 600 miles away. So no hints on timings. Racall the Almanac has guidance

All that assumes that the weather is favourable. Otherwise its a trip to Cardiff.

 

[fisherman]

An older fisherman bought a boat from St Ives and asked a local about the trip round : "just keep a handy berth off" was the advice. Inside the Runnelstone it's 'keep the lookout windows in view'.

 

[mattonthesea]

Really would go for the inside passage. Much shorter and not quite as bad as it is implied.

There are worse - you have come down the Welsh coast, past the Lleyn and negotiated Skomer etc.

You can take a break at St Ives, though it can get bumpy if you choose the wrong spot to anchor.
But you can then make a much better prediction of your arrival time at The Brisons and then get the best of the tide around the end.
Pass Kettle Bottom to starboard and close to the Armed Knight on Port in 14+ metres.
After that Robert is your mother's brother.

In my opinion, Runnel Stones needs more care and you have to decide your route - inside or out.
Manage your expectations of Penzance.

Sadly my little book of cribs is on the boat, 600 miles away. So no hints on timings. Racall the Almanac has guidance

All that assumes that the weather is favourable. Otherwise its a trip to Cardiff.

plus one

The tide runs south at approx HW Dover -5.10 around Lands End.

It is fairly simple to round inside. Basically, stand off Bisons and head for the middle of the Longships gap.
Newlyn's not a bad place to stop but be aware it is a commercial fishing port - us yotties are tolerated
My approach to Lizard is to look and make a decision then. You can see the overfalls clearly when they are there.
If you need a break before heading further East then Coverack is a nice anchorage. Falmouth is good but it takes an age to get in and out of.

I did Medway to Bristol a couple of years ago

 

[steve yates]

Thanks folks,

So basically clear the bisons, and go through shoreside of kettles bottom then keep close to seaward side of armed knight. Try and catch the south going tide (all 3 hours of it) and with the nw'lws I should fly through. Do I keep to seaward of The runnel Stone? and are these places full of lobster pots? (though hopefully will have no need of engine)

Forecast is f5-6ish nw, to wish for thurs during the day if I can leave tomorrow night. Similar but getting a bit windier for fri if I'm held up.

I'm estimating about 18 hrs to landsend from mh, and another 3 round to newlyn. If the rewired autopilot motor doesn't work, it will prob be cardiff for me

 

[wotayottie]

done cardiff to falmouth many times, and am decent time is about 27 hours for a 35 footer. The key tidal gates are hartland, lands end and the lizard. Inshore channel with both hartland and lands end. I have always found that it I get lands end right, then I am OK for the lizard.

unless you are single handing and knackered, I wouldnt go near newly. Just plug on

 

[zoidberg]

'All that assumes that the weather is favourable....'

 

[jdc]

...Do I keep to seaward of The runnel Stone?

I always have but then I've always been aiming direct for the Lizard.

Once round the Lizard, I can recommend three anchorages which rarely feature in pilots or other people's recommendations but are really good (holding, shelter and atmosphere):
1. Church Cove very near the Lizard, just to the N of the lifeboat slip. Sand in about 6m. It's where I usually stop for a night in a westerly on my way back from the Isles of Scilly.
2. Just to the E of Carag Luz, about a mile W of Black Head. Sand in about 7m. Ideal for wind from WNW to NNE. We call it Stegosaurus - see if you can guess why.
3. Porthallow; sand in 6 - 7m but beware fish cages in middle of bay (no prob in the anchorage itself). Excellent pub (5 Pilchards), and no swell so as good as Falmouth in wind from S to NW and much less stressy when arriving in the middle of the night.

PS: All this talk of 'take the inshore passage within a biscuit's toss of foaming rocks': I do assume you intend to take the inshore passage through the Manacles? I mean, it'd be wimpy not to...