Best route to competence for boat ownership?

[frasmar]

Newbie here. Apologies if I ask all the usual newbie questions.

I have an ambition and I need advice on the quickest (or best if different) way to achieve it from a (more or less) standing start.

I want one day, not too long away, to own a largish (live-in-able for holidays) cruising yacht, possibly in the 36-40ft bracket. I want to become better than competent to skipper this for family and friends cruising in both Mediterranean and Scottish type conditions including crossings. (I have absolutely no interest in doing this for a living / commercial ratings etc. I just want to be safe.)

Leaving aside for now how to acquire the right boat (can’t afford the 40ft bracket right now, but hoping to be able to do this comfortably in a year or two), I’m trying to work out how to get competent / qualified to operate it.

My current experience is next to none. (A little bit of dinghy sailing, no exams. Quite a lot of land yachting. A couple of days crewing for racing but not too recently. A lot of time paragliding to a high level – in some ways a similar mind set I think.)

The RYA qualification structure (or the progression between different levels) seems a bit, well, loose and non-linear compared to other sports I’ve been involved in. It seems that a lot of people do bits, miss bits out, skip to the chase etc. Opinions I have sought seem divided on whether spending a lot of time in school or in a club, or buying a smaller stepping stone boat of my own would be the best route. (I would be able to do this in the £10K ish bracket at the moment).

I’m not sure even whether more dinghy sailing is a necessary step or a hindrance.

What’s the qualification I’m aiming for? Which courses should I consider, which, if any, can be skipped and should I be looking to do any of this in my own boat or is that a bad idea?

I can only really do weekends and holidays. A dedicated holiday may be a good option for me?

How much time / money should I expect to expend in getting to the level I should be at?

And what books should I be buying for homework?

Supplementary question – what ticket is generally required to be able to charter a yacht in, say, Greece? Same thing?

I’d be very grateful to any newbie-friendly old hand who can suggest the best fast track route to achieve my aims.

Cheers,

Fraser

 

[Blue5]

Probably get shot down in flames for not advocating 27 years of dinghy sailing first, but after never having sailed before we did the RYA competent crew and day skipper, we then bought a 35ft yacht and sailed as often as we could, if you have a boat there are plenty of willing teachers/helpers.

 

[webcraft]

.
1/ Do the RYA Day Skipper theory

2/ Day skipper practical (you need 5 days experience before doing this - you can get this on a Comp Crew course if necessary)

3/ Read lots of books

4/ Buy a 27-30ft boat for £10k - the market is awash with good examples at the moment

5/ Go sailing whenever possible and put what you have learned into practice. Challenge yourself with some longer passages and/or extended cruising.

6/ Post questions on here - you will (mostly) get sensible answers from a large highly experienced group of people.

- W

 

[maby]

Probably get shot down in flames for not advocating 27 years of dinghy sailing first, but after never having sailed before we did the RYA competent crew and day skipper, we then bought a 35ft yacht and sailed as often as we could, if you have a boat there are plenty of willing teachers/helpers.

Well, I wouldn't go as far as 27 years, but I do think that a moderate level of experience in dinghies is valuable to a yacht skipper. Sitting in a small to medium sized dinghy in a force 4 to 5 (as we did over the weekend) is about as good as you can get for wind awareness and it's so much more sensitive to incorrect handling that you really do learn an enormous amount from the experience - most modern 35 footers are very forgiving beasts in comparison with a Laser!

Other than that, you simply need practice and experience! Objectively speaking, the RYA Dayskipper is probably too easy to be of very much practical value - at least as far as the syllabus is concerned. My wife and I have both passed both the Dayskipper theory and practical exams and I'm glad we did. The dayskipper practical is a concentrated five days of sailing offshore under the supervision of an experienced tutor. The value was not so much the syllabus material as all the other practical tips that were thrown in.

In fact we had a good example of that this weekend when we hired a dinghy for a couple of hours sailing on a local reservoir. It was pretty gusty, touching force 5 and at the end we needed to get the boat back onto a short pontoon sticking out from a lee shore that was the reservoir side - a near vertical concrete wall. No matter what I did with the sails up, I could not get the speed low enough to come in safely and, with the sails down, I had no steerage way to slip between two pontoons that were quite close together. Then I remembered the MOB under sail exercise we had done on the Dayskipper. That had been in a force 5 to 6 making the boat very difficult to control in close quarters. Our tutor had instructed us to drop both the main and the genoa and had then got each of us in turn to sit in the pullpit, literally holding up a few feet of the genoa - it's amazing how little sail you actually need to fly to get the boat moving in a controlled manner. We slipped that little dinghy onto the pontoon at a crawl!

 

[IanR]

Time on the water

My experience is that dinghy sailing and probably land yachting give you something that many who start sailing yachts from the outset do not have and that is wind awareness. WA is hard to teach as easily on a yacht as it would be in a dinghy. So you probably have an asset from the outset

My second point is that safety and confidence come from knowledge and experience, the RYA approach is actually reasonably well structured in that if you want to follow the skippering track, you could do worse than start with a Dayskipper course (Theory is OK as a starter, but I would always recommend practical to start investing in time on the water)

You can then move on to do Coastal Skipper or Yachtmaster, the primary difference being the extent of your experience and confidence. You could do a fast track, but that might take some of the fun out of learning and can perhaps compress your experience in a number of ways that might not suit you.

There is a lot of fun in learning with a good instructor and you will learn new things and techniques even if like me you do a YM after 25 years of yachting - I did and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience.

So in short follow the programme, get involved with a group of people who sail and share experiences and enjoy the time. Sailing is a sport where you are always learning, which is why it is so special. It is not just about how good a good day is, it is about how you cope with the inevitable challenges of what could become a bad day and how you deal with them. You never stop learning!

I have some friends who only started sailing shortly before they bought a boat a similar size to yours, they take it in turns to do "The skippering" and have put in time and effort and planning, got some on boat training and they are among the most professional (Small p) skippers I know. They are aware of their limitations and prepare well, they recently joined us on a cross channel tour in company around the coast of Normandy and the Cis and learned a lot and had a great time. All done from scratch in about 3 -4 years!

Being a skipper means retaining the confidence of your crew and helping them to enjoy their time on board, they may not know as much as you but they will certainly not enjoy the experience if you are low in credibility and nervous.

For Greece you may require an International Certificate of Competence (ICC) which you can get as a by product from the appropriate RYA courses (See the web site) I have never been asked for mine, however it is a stated requirement in a number of charter agreements and various countries.

Enjoy it, feel free to ask for advice and never let anyone tell you not to follow your instincts!

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... 3/ Read lots of books

The book reading advice is very good and there are lots of good publications. A decent set of books are the RYA guides which cover lots of subjects in a concise and easy format. See the RYA website.

I would thourgly recommend Total Loss. There have been a few editions of this book as new stories are added to the collection. This book should be compulsory reading for the novice skipper as the lessons frame the reasons for having a level of competency quite clearly. Far better to learn from others mistakes than your own.

Webcrafts advice is very good and provides a programme that should get you to the position of owning a larger boat, say in 3 years time. There is nothing better than small boat sailing to hone skills, dinghy sailing is a good introduction and I would always recommend at least some dinghy sailing, if possible.

The one issue about larger boats as first time boats that the inexperienced do not appreciate is that the forces involved are exponential and can be quite frightening if realised. For example a 26% increase in boat length from 30 to 38 foot LOA, translates roughly into a 50% increase in power available.

This additional power can overwhelm the inexperienced with a high potential for serious consequences. Remember there is no 15 minute response time by the emergency services at sea, its all down to the skipper, at least initially.

The Day Skipper Course Completion Certificate is suitable for many charter companies.

 

[AliM]

For your own confidence, I'd suggest a Comp Crew (or Day Skipper, if feeling a bit more confident) course to start with, but if the ambition is to do things with the family and friends, why not do it as a family (or with friends), so that your partner/kids/friends can get a taste for sailing too. Move onto the Day Skipper, if you like. The theory can be done as an evening class or correspondence (you do need some skills in navigation, rules, conventions, weather etc). Then the small boat - get some own-boat tuition on it, maybe do the Day skipper on it - some instruction personalised to your boat is going to be incredibly valuable. Sail as much as you can - that's why getting your partner/kids/friends involved at an early stage is necessary.

 

[awol]

Don't underestimate the money drain that a boat can be. You can afford a £10k boat at the moment but, like owning a car, there are a wheen of costs involved and that's without anything actually going wrong. The concept of a boat as a hole in the water into which you pour money isn't far from the truth!

For chartering I believe an ICC (free with a Day Skipper practical) is a suitable piece of paper.

 

[PoRL9]

My twopennyworth...

I'd recommend a comp crew course for both your AND your partner (so that if anything happened to you when you're out with your family, there is somebody else on the boat at least familiar with what's going on). It also means there's somebody on the boat who understands how a winch works, how to cleat on, etc etc...

Do the day-skipper theory, then the day-skipper practical.

I'd consider that to be the absolute minimum to be safe for local "coastal" cruising, and all over the Med.

If you're looking for longer passages (eg: Buying a boat in the UK and sailing it to the Med yourself), then have a good think about a Coastal Skipper course, and then possibly at Yachtmaster Coastal or Offshore (however you'll need a fair bit of experience first).

Finally, don't forget it's supposed to be enjoyable!! If you spend all day on the boat shouting at each other, you're doing something wrong!

 

[Victoria Sponge]

I'm in the don't bother with dinghy sailing camp. I'm basing this on a lot of experience of sailing with dinghy sailors and sailing with those who went straight onto bigger boats.

There's so much to learn when sailing a bigger boat that you just cannot learn from sailing dinghies. There is also a bit of a problem with dinghy sailors applying the same "worry" when the boat heels. I've sailed with someone who thought the boat would capsize everytime it heeled.

Experience, experience, experience is the only way to go. RYA courses, sailing with others, flotilla sailing, anything really that you can get to.

 

[[70521]]

My twopennyworth...

I'd recommend a comp crew course for both your AND your partner (so that if anything happened to you when you're out with your family, there is somebody else on the boat at least familiar with what's going on). It also means there's somebody on the boat who understands how a winch works, how to cleat on, etc etc...

Do the day-skipper theory, then the day-skipper practical.

Totally agree, you both need to be able to sail the boat and make the tea.

I'm in the don't bother with dinghy sailing camp.

Me too.

 

[photodog]

.
1/ Do the RYA Day Skipper theory

2/ Day skipper practical (you need 5 days experience before doing this - you can get this on a Comp Crew course if necessary)

3/ Read lots of books

4/ Buy a 27-30ft boat for £10k - the market is awash with good examples at the moment

5/ Go sailing whenever possible and put what you have learned into practice. Challenge yourself with some longer passages and/or extended cruising.

6/ Post questions on here - you will (mostly) get sensible answers from a large highly experienced group of people.

- W

Excellent advice IMHO.

I would add that the more you sail... the happier you will be and the more competent...

So... Stick with the dinghy sailing.... its amazing how many folks say this is not nessecary... True... but its amazing how many people will use the engine in conditions they could sail in.....

Do some chartering in the interm as well.... Nothing beats two weeks in the caribean in mid winter... and its better to practice on someone elses boat than your own!

 

[maby]

...

There's so much to learn when sailing a bigger boat that you just cannot learn from sailing dinghies. There is also a bit of a problem with dinghy sailors applying the same "worry" when the boat heels. I've sailed with someone who thought the boat would capsize everytime it heeled.
....

But, on the other hand, since capsizing is a standard part of dinghy sailing, why did they worry?

 

[jimbaerselman]

Fraser,

Welcome aboard!

Most individuals recommend the method they themselves have followed to become competent cruisers. There are many methods; some good examples have been given above. Your post shows you've researched much of the subject already.

You already have wind awareness; land yachting, bit of dinghy, bit of racing, so I think your conclusion that further dinghy sailing may not be needed is correct.

If you're going to sail in tidal waters, you're aiming for "day skipper". Afterwards you must add to your experience to become safe. Some experience should be "in charge", either by chartering or by buying your own boat.

There are three competent authorities to give the big picture.

1. The RYA you've investigated - all matters to do with boating. Their training courses teach the lessons (theory and practical) but don't give experience to move up to the next step, being safelyin charge for longer passages.

2. The Cruising Association (CA) specialises in cruising (motor and sail), and comes into its own when you're considering buying a boat or traveling further afield. Their crewing service offers experience.

3. Charter companies aim to develop their client base. Using them you can gain "in charge" experience in stages.

Stages.

First, non-tidal, very easy, possible for complete novices - see learn to sail, followed by a week in charge of your own yacht. Do this with a bunch of your mates, or with your partner, then you'll have team of people for future charters. (add another week or two in charge if you wish, but don't go tidal until:

Second, tidal, add day skipper theory, and maybe yachtmaster theory, and the day skipper practical course. This will be a doddle, but it will give you that essential charter qualification - the ICC.

Third, add tidal experience (as crew and in charge - your own boat, or charter)

Fourth, if you wish, take your yachtmaster practical and exam

Sometime, if you're going to buy a boat, learn about essential boat maintenance, rules and regulations in other countries, and what kit helps when taking a boat into a different climate (the CA's speciality. Also see my web site)

My method? I learnt on board a Brixham Trawler cruising the channel in Uni holidays, became a mate on board (freebie hols!), then was asked to skipper. At that stage I rudely discovered there were big gaps in my knowledge, did RYA yachtmaster - thank heavens.

 

[iain789]

The book reading advice is very good and there are lots of good publications. A decent set of books are the RYA guides which cover lots of subjects in a concise and easy format. See the RYA website.

I would thourgly recommend Total Loss. There have been a few editions of this book as new stories are added to the collection. This book should be compulsory reading for the novice skipper as the lessons frame the reasons for having a level of competency quite clearly. Far better to learn from others mistakes than your own.

Lord no! If you read that book without a few year's experience you will be petrified to go anywhere outside the marina. It will scare the pants off you and convince you that the sea is a very dangerous place, and sailing is pretty much guaranteed to end in tears, injury or death.

I agree there are a lot of lessons to be learned in it, but it is not for the novice IMHO unless you want to put him off for good.

 

[photodog]

Hahahaha! Total Loss! Yeah, that'll keep even the most adventurous marina bound... or buying a Vancouver 34 to toodle around the Solent.....

"Heavy Weather Sailing" is a good one as well.... and should be read in conjunction... lots of good info about stability and stuff..

 

[rotrax]

Probably get shot down in flames for not advocating 27 years of dinghy sailing first, but after never having sailed before we did the RYA competent crew and day skipper, we then bought a 35ft yacht and sailed as often as we could, if you have a boat there are plenty of willing teachers/helpers.

So did First Mate and I-with a third share syndicate boat in between. The key is sea miles to build up experience.

 

[tcm]

Requirements for chartering a boat vary - many charter companies recognise that UK boaters don't *have* to have a licence as such - and yet completely unqualified brits are often a load more competent than "licenced" europeans who get qualified on minimal basis in often tideless waters.

Buying a small boat first isn't really a *load* of help - smaller boats are a bit poxier and harder work than bigger boats and then there's the hassles of trading one for another PLUS if the first boat is old and cacky, it might put you off. Or even worse, it'll put the famil off, big-time. This is important!

See, loads of people buy boats that are nastier than their houses to spend a weekend in, or to live in - and then wonder why the other half/family isn't that keen on coming to the boat. It's often because their boat is nastier, dirtier, colder, more uncomfortable and in almost all respects, nowhere near as nice as the house. They bought a classic (i.e very old and crummy and cramped) although otherwise pretty boat, or they bought a cheap boat (eg no hot water, not much head room) or a racer (even more primitive living conditions where the loos can be just a bucket) instead of a boat with a bit of niceness-to-live-in about it. Looking round boats at boat shows etc, you'll know when you've found the right sort of thing. Yeah, newish, not old. Incidentally, one fairly drastic option in this regard is to sell the house, and buy a really stupendous boat. Or less drastic is to pretend that you've paid a deposit on a massive fab boat that is way outside the budget and see if she admits to having some secret money stashed away or whatever. Or if none of that works there's always the "Split Up and Sail" option...

Anyways, a series of weekends of instruction (dayskipper etc) is the way to go, more great advice above as usual....until you feel confident enough to rent a charter boat in somewhere easyish - BVI in caribbean is amongst the easiest but there are others. Uk south coast isn't easy but it's not ultra-dificult really - altho if you can sail there you can probably sail anywhere in the world.

So yep, you eventually just buy the boat you want, probably after loads of advice etc from other here and elsewhere ... and you IMMEDIATELY get someone instructorish-capable who can help you on that steep learning curve of sailing the boat, driving it in and out of marinas etc AND looking after the mechanical stuff - and they stay on the boat for possibly two weeks, full time. He or she takes you in and out of every single marina/anchoring spot that you are likely to go, so you've seen the places and you know where to go and when to avoid that place and so on, and become confident of arriving elsewhere at other new places too.

hint : Many of the really ooer dangerous problems on boats usually happen quite close into land, bit like hang-gliding where it's just mastering the last inch above the ground that is the important bit. On a boat, being able to hoist the sails is only a part of it - you need to be shown around the boat, and around quite a lot of the mechanical stuff, so you know what to do if stuff goes wrong.

None of it is mentally difficult - it's just knowing that if this happens then you do this etc, and yeah, the hang-gliding thing is useful i think in that things on a boat are often only partially under control, and the variables of waves/wind presumably similar to odd air pockets here and there.

For cruiser boat, there'll be more non-sailing stuff such as toilets and gas supply and water tanks and pumps and and fridges working so on - whereas purist sailing or racing is more focussed just on the actual sailing of using/tweaking this sail like this and so on. There's not a lot of complication to sailing per se - you just put the sails up, about three bits of rope per sail, easy peasy, and mostly, you'll move along nicely. BUT if you want to make your boat go faster than other people sailing an identical boat, well, that needs more know-how, and isn't easy at all.

It'l be fine.

 

[island163]

I'd book the family on a Sunsail flotilla or similar holiday or perhaps a Sunsail beach holiday so that you and the family can get some pleasant sailing experiences under your belt. I think there is a 3 day minimum course that Sunsail require if you are doing a flotilla, we did it on day yachts on a Sunsail beach holiday. (does not have to be Sunsail but they were the company we have used) When we started sailing yachts 15 years ago we found the flotilla experience a fantastic confidence builder, easy sailing with people available to help you park. It does get windy and wet in the Med and the Carribean but everything seems so much better if it's warm. Whenever it's cold and blowing old boots and we are wearing our full foul weather gear it's great to remember what warm weather sailing is like.

From there the RYA Dazed Kipper theory and practical are great courses and that's all we had when we bought our 38 ft yacht. Since then we've have covered a lot more sailing miles and done lots more courses including Yachtmaster Offshore. Have enjoyed and learnt from every single course.

As others have mentioned sailing a yacht is pretty easy compared to sailing a dinghy. Wind awareness is important but as long as you reef in plenty of time it's pretty hard to capsize a yacht.

One of the hardest parts of sailing yachts is getting them on and off a berth and that's the big advantage of doing the Day Skipper Practical where you'll get lots of practice pontoon bashing.

Finally you need to be able to read and use a nautical chart if you want to avoid getting in to too much trouble. The Day Skipper theory course is very good for this.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Lord no! If you read that book .... will scare the pants off .... but it is not for the novice .....

Hahahaha! Total Loss! Yeah, that'll keep even the most adventurous marina bound...

I think that novices should read these types of books. Most beginners learning to sail have sufficient common sense to place Total Loss in the correct context, I would have thought.

It is well established that knowledge of failure mechanisms in a learning environment enhances the ability to put new concepts into the correct perspective for the student.

For example the lessons from the Pride of Bilbao / Ouzo incident and other collisions (in Total Loss) has many lessons relative to the beginner learning about seamanship, watch keeping, maintaining a lookout and rules of the road.

Learning by rote, when learning to sail, makes for ignorant sailors.