Bernard Stamm-Vendee DSQ

[Iain C]

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/167337/Cheminees-Poujoulat-disqualified

Thoughts people? Very sad IMHO, rules are rules but was there any advantage? Looks like the guy was just trying to save his boat.

I would have like to have seen it go to the remaining competitors to decide. I know that's very unconventional under RRS, just seems a bit odd that a blind eye is effectively turned to people sleeping at 20 knots, but an escalating dragging anchor situation ends up in a DSQ.

I would say a very unpopular decision with competitors, the public and sponsors alike.

 

[Koeketiene]

He still has time to lodge an appeal.

 

[flawed_logic]

He broke the rules. I guess if you bend them once then you have a precedent.
Like everyone else though, he should be allowed to stay in the race and perhaps get a penalty .

 

[Roberto]

hello Iain,

also, there is the much shown-off "race without external assistance" which raises questions.

Whenever they break anything, they may contact their shorebased teams where a whole lot of technicians can advise as to what has to be done, the best repair, basically how to cope with any technical problems.
Fair enough, race rules allow that, but can the race be called "without external assistance"?

On the other hand, Stamm's bpoat drifts towards the Russian Professor xxx, a Russian sailor jumps aboard and secures the boat, then leaves..

Ok it's surely "external assistance", but how does it compare with the 24h availability of shorebased teams ?

 

[rwoofer]

There are the rules and then there are the spirit of the rules. Unfortunately it is very difficult to write specific rules that capture the spirit. Just like the rule of unintended consequences.

As many of the other competitors have said, I hope the jury reconsiders the decision on appeal and give some other form of penalty such as time stoppage. That was what was given for what was arguably a more important rule (because it endangered the lives of others) that is part of the Colregs - the shipping lane incidents.

 

[Hoolie]

He seems to have been a victim of circumstances - the Russian sailor jumping aboard was obviously not of his making.
I think a penalty rather than disqualification would be more appropriate. Let's hope this will be the outcome of his appeal.

 

[trapezeartist]

I'm with Mike Golding. A tough call, technically an infringement but ...... Generally I am inclined to look at all rules in a sporting contest as obstacles to get around and therefore any infringement has to be penalised no matter how innocent. In this case, I'm sympathetic to the circumstances and would like to see a very small penalty applied. Definitely not disqualification.

No-one was disqualified for the TSZ infringements, which were deliberate actions, far more serious and also potentially dangerous.

 

[Tomahawk]

The Vendee website is a nightmare.. Does anyone know exactly what rule 3.2 says?

If it says stuff about external assistance... how then Alex? In his video of the repair to the rudder links Alex said he was given instructions on how to carry out the repair by his shore team... Is that receiving external assistance?

I was wondering why Stamm suddenly seemed to stop. Regardless of having a Russian sailor jump on board, he lost a lot of ground and at least one place..

On a wider consideration, thenRace committee seem to be OTT.. When some folks broke the TSS rule. They only got a time penality for putting lives at risk... Stamm coould have done everything by himself, it would have taken longer..

I do feel sad for him..

 

[bbg]

The Vendee website is a nightmare.. Does anyone know exactly what rule 3.2 says?

relevant part

3.2 Outside assistance and docking conditions (modification of R.R.S. rule 45)
During the event, a competitor cannot have any material contact with any other ship or aircraft. A competitor cannot be provided with any supplies in any way possible.
A competitor can put into port, mooring or anchoring by his/her own means but cannot receive any outside assistance, except for medical assistance strictly limited to the terms of the article 3.3 below. The competitor cannot dock or come alongside another boat.
...
Failure to comply with this article will disqualify the competitor after instruction by the jury.

As for Alex, the preamble to 3 reads

Except for the scenarios defined above, contacts via telephone or e-mails are authorised between the competitor and one or several persons ashore. In case of a problem requiring repair on the boat or in case of an accident or any unforeseen event that could have important consequences on the competitor’s health, any advice given remotely by a third party is accepted as per the conditions described in article 3.3 below.

Looks to me like the jury had no choice about the infraction or the penalty. I have appeared before a jury comprising at least one of these jury members. I would be surprised if they would have disqualified him if they thought they had an option.

 

[wotayottie]

I know that's very unconventional under RRS, just seems a bit odd that a blind eye is effectively turned to people sleeping at 20 knots, but an escalating dragging anchor situation ends up in a DSQ.

If they did disqualify for sleeping then they wouldnt have a race at all, would they?

I dont see that rafting against a big boat should disqualify him but accepting help from someone else in a single handed race? That cant be allowed.

 

[[70521]]

Its a tough one, but rules is rules and in all elite sport they are complex. I suspect the sailor from the ship was trying to help and was unaware of the impact of his actions.

Edit: Just spotted Stamm requests reopening of his case

I wish him luck, wonderful to see such honesty and sportsmanship given the event that they are in.

 

[fireball]

I wish him luck too ...

sailing is a Gentlemanly sport and should remain as such. At my level it is not uncommon for competitors to be given reasonable leeway when inadvertently breaking the rules - providing they made no material gain ...

At this level though they should be a lot more aware of the rules and abide by them. The Jury should judge by the spirit of the rules not the literal wording.

 

[E39mad]

In order to appeal Stamm needs to provide evidence previously not provided .... difficult I would say as you provide all you can in the 1st instance in the hope that they allow you to continue.

 

[BlackPig]

I wish him luck too ...

sailing is a Gentlemanly sport and should remain as such. At my level it is not uncommon for competitors to be given reasonable leeway when inadvertently breaking the rules - providing they made no material gain ...

At this level though they should be a lot more aware of the rules and abide by them. The Jury should judge by the spirit of the rules not the literal wording.

I recently read a book on the Scots involvement of the Americas cup. "Gentlemanly" by some, lawers by others.

 

[Sybarite]

relevant part



As for Alex, the preamble to 3 reads



Looks to me like the jury had no choice about the infraction or the penalty. I have appeared before a jury comprising at least one of these jury members. I would be surprised if they would have disqualified him if they thought they had an option.

''The competitor cannot dock or come alongside another boat''

This would seem to imply intent and positive action, which apparently was not the case here??

 

[bbg]

''The competitor cannot dock or come alongside another boat''

This would seem to imply intent and positive action, which apparently was not the case here??

I had the same thought, but I suspect that if he had secured in order to stabilize the situation, then immediately left and anchored again, he might be in a different situation. It sound like, once secured he stayed alongside and completed his repairs.

 

[MissFitz]

The Jury should judge by the spirit of the rules not the literal wording.

+1

They've made exceptions in the past, don't see why they can't now. Very inspiring to see all the messages of support from the other skippers, tho, definitely brings a small & sporting tear to the eye.

 

[bbg]

The Jury should judge by the spirit of the rules not the literal wording.

-1

They need to make their decision based on the wording of the rules. Any other result is unfair to the OTHER competitors.

 

[MissFitz]

Any other result is unfair to the OTHER competitors.

But if all the other competitors petition for the decision to be reversed?

 

[Seven Spades]

There is more to this than simply keeping strictly to the rules. By his own admission he did not ask the Russian to leave immediately which suggests that he thought it would do no harm to accept help secure his boat given the situation.

The problem here is that his sponsors will be hopping mad that the money they have put up has been wasted because the committee regards his actions as cheating. There were a lot of other world class racers who did not enter this race because they were unable to come up with a sponsor. Next time it is quite possible the Vendee Globe will have one fewer competitors.

You could take the view that had he not broken the rules he would have been out of the race because he would have lost his boat anyway. I doubt it but if the situation was that grave then should he be able to re-join a race that without outside help he would not have been able to?

I think it is a very difficult situation for the committee. It seem that the Russians caused the problem in the first place by anchoring too close to him. I think the best decision would have been a penalty, no one could argue with that and I doubt it would really bother the sponsors. Al the other competitors will be acutely aware the effect of a DSQ on future sponsorship and will give measured support to Bernard Stamm.