Bending the rules of the sea?

[Nostrodamus]

I know, rules are rules for a reason and you have to know them.
There are those who will spout chapter and verse and we all remember trying to work out the various day and night signals for big boats and fishing vessels.

Having said that trying to remember them all is sometimes difficult and that is where common sense should come in isn't it. When I am sailing I don't want to be looking through binoculars at another vessel trying to work out who is the stand on boat.

I may be sailing or motoring, I may or may not be the stand on vessel but in general the best rule seems to be change course to avoid big boats and fishing vessels at the first opportunity.

It's not strictly in the rules but I am sure it i something most of us do or do you follow the law to the letter?

 

[wadget]

I know, rules are rules for a reason and you have to know them.
There are those who will spout chapter and verse and we all remember trying to work out the various day and night signals for big boats and fishing vessels.

Having said that trying to remember them all is sometimes difficult and that is where common sense should come in isn't it. When I am sailing I don't want to be looking through binoculars at another vessel trying to work out who is the stand on boat.

I may be sailing or motoring, I may or may not be the stand on vessel but in general the best rule seems to be change course to avoid big boats and fishing vessels at the first opportunity.

It's not strictly in the rules but I am sure it i something most of us do or do you follow the law to the letter?

Remember that your idea of the earliest opportunity is likely to be different to that of the officer on board a large ship.

 

[Tomahawk]

But it is inevetble that when you alter course in very good time to pass a fishing boat with plenty of room.... they will suddenly find all the fish are in the area you are heading towards.. It is remarkable how the fish seem to understand where you are going and follow you... which of course means the fishing boat has to also alter course to intercept you..

 

[Baggy]

The fishing boats are a strange phenomenon arnt they..

does not matter how many course changes you make, they always seem to end up on a collision course..

 

[Litotes]

I may be sailing or motoring, I may or may not be the stand on vessel but in general the best rule seems to be change course to avoid big boats and fishing vessels at the first opportunity.

It's not strictly in the rules but I am sure it i something most of us do or do you follow the law to the letter?

I don't think there is anything in the regulations to prevent you from avoiding the development of a "collision situation" if you choose. They only apply (as you know) to situations where "a risk of collision exists" and that's when it's potentially dangerous to make it up as you go along. When it gets to that point is a matter of judgment, with regard not only to your own situation, but also to the situation of the other vessel. The assembled company can (and does) argue about that until the cows come home without arriving at a definition that fits all possible circumstances.

 

[davidej]

This one has been done to death on several occasions recently.

Give it a rest!

 

[prv]

This one has been done to death on several occasions recently.

Give it a rest!

+1 !

Pete

 

[sarabande]

that may be a bit unfair, as there are often new arrivals on the forum who don't have the extensive experience of people with thousands of sea miles.

As Nostro says (I paraphrase ) it is worth thinking about what is "best practice" relative to what is statutory or regulatory requirement. If by not insisting on your stand-on "rights" at an early stage, you can avoid a lot of swearing and thrashing of propellers at close quarters, then a clear alteration of course in plenty of time seems to be sensible and seamanlike.

 

[Baggy]

I see the miserable gits are back with their unhelpful comments.

 

[Sailfree]

I know, rules are rules for a reason and you have to know them.
I may be sailing or motoring, I may or may not be the stand on vessel but in general the best rule seems to be change course to avoid big boats and fishing vessels at the first opportunity.

The rules are there to give some degree of predictability just like the highway code. Where would we be if every small car on a main road suddenly braked to let a large lorry out cause he is bigger.

The rules have been carefully worked out so that in most cases the boat with the best ability to avoid a collision does so the boat with the slowest speed or least ability to manoeuvre is the stand on.

I usually find that most X channels I never have to alter course as big boats have already done so but my most recent crossing one ship stopped and another went at various speeds and courses to avoid me. In both cases I turned on my engine and went behind them as I was unhappy passing across their bow so close yet with hindsight that was what they were both positioning themselves for me to do. Unfortunately they could not know that many of us have come across ships that plough on regardless of obligations so that we are cautious and that what they considered a safe distance in front of their bow - I did not! After some 14yrs this is the first time this has happened to me and twice on one Xing! We were tramping on though at about 8-9kts, a constant course on a broad reach.

Try to follow the rule IMO is best advice but with caution and remember that finally its both boats obligation to avoid a collision.

 

[Cruiser2B]

Sailfree - excellent post.

 

[SeamanStaines]

Whilst on the subject, something that always annoys me! I have a 13mtr Catamaran which has a huge mainsail, heavy and a double purchase mainsail halyard so it takes a long time to raise it. Usually I do this by checking that I have space around me, motor slowly upwind on autopilot and spent the ten minutes it takes to crank it up the mast.

So, during that period I am motoring and am therefore the give way vessel to any boats sailing. Clearly though, I am very restricted in my ability to maneuver with a main half way up!

So why do other yachtsman think its amusing to create a collision situation and then expect me to alter course, its pretty obvious what I am trying to do.

 

[Koeketiene]

I may be sailing or motoring, I may or may not be the stand on vessel but in general the best rule seems to be change course to avoid big boats and fishing vessels at the first opportunity.

It's not strictly in the rules but I am sure it i something most of us do or do you follow the law to the letter?

Pretty much what we do - though I would include warships in that list.
Generally: keep clear of the professionals (people at sea because it's their job rather than hobby).

Having been skippered a grey funnel line vessel, I'm only too well aware of what a 'nuisance' yachts can be.

Only when it comes to a close quarters manoeuvring situation involving other yachts do I tend to stick to the rules when I'm stand-on vessel.
Owning a boat built like a brick ****house helps.

 

[stuarta]

Clearly though, I am very restricted in my ability to maneuver with a main half way up!

So why do other yachtsman think its amusing to create a collision situation and then expect me to alter course, its pretty obvious what I am trying to do.

Technically you are not Restricted in Your Ability to Manoeuvre in accordance with the IRPCS. Yes, it is an inconvenience to manoeuvre and you may not be as maneuverable as you would like but you are still considerably more maneuverable than a vessel laying down/picking up a navigational mark or launching/recovering aircraft for example.

Now, of course, it would be good seamanship for those around you to take note of what you were doing and give you a little more room, reduce wash, etc. but we can all dream of a perfect world...

 

[onesea]

Now, of course, it would be good seamanship for those around you to take note of what you were doing and give you a little more room, reduce wash, etc. but we can all dream of a perfect world...

And those that do not try to create that perfect world in such case are a gang of W48KRS.

You seem them sailing up wind they are on Stbd tack you are on port they alter to ensure you have to.... Idiots the lot of them....

Personally I try and avoid risk of collision in the first place it is as a rule much easier. Although when the rules do apply you stand by them...

 

[maxi77]

Technically you are not Restricted in Your Ability to Manoeuvre in accordance with the IRPCS. Yes, it is an inconvenience to manoeuvre and you may not be as maneuverable as you would like but you are still considerably more maneuverable than a vessel laying down/picking up a navigational mark or launching/recovering aircraft for example.

Now, of course, it would be good seamanship for those around you to take note of what you were doing and give you a little more room, reduce wash, etc. but we can all dream of a perfect world...

I would go a trifle further and suggest that any one who alters course in that situation to create a potential for collision is the one in breach of the rules, it's not like racing where you can tack and cry STARBOARD. You are not allowed to alter course to put yourself in a right of way situation

 

[Seajet]

I can only imagine someone altering to enforce their right of way must be a very sad individual trying to boost a fragile ego; if I was trying to hoist a big main like that and suffered this they might learn a few new words and gestures, stand on vessel or not !

 

[maxi77]

I had most of my big ship OOW experience in submarines, and we worked very strongly on the principle that the way to avoid collisions was to avoid close quarters situations where ever possible, we were one compartment vessels, flood one cmpartment and they sank so perhaps a trifle more cautious than some others. When there was sea room we would always make an early alteration to get of some one elses track there were enough scary times around without deliberately making them deliberately. I have always applied the same principles whem sailing and am still here to tell of it. I am quite sure that OOWs who see my cpa range rise are happy there is one less contact to worry about, rather than complaining that I should have stood on.

 

[Three kings]

I may be sailing or motoring, I may or may not be the stand on vessel but in general the best rule seems to be change course to avoid big boats and fishing vessels at the first opportunity.

It's not strictly in the rules but I am sure it i something most of us do or do you follow the law to the letter?

On my boat I have a policy of calling the big boys on VHF at 10 miles out if CPA is less than one mile. I politely ask if I am visible to to them and if they can maintain a safe separation distance. Without exception I have never had anything but courtesy and cooperation from them.

It's when I receive no response that I promptly change course and wonder why the megaton leviathon slipping by at 18 knots does not answer either a VHF or DSC call.

 

[westernman]

Whilst on the subject, something that always annoys me! I have a 13mtr Catamaran which has a huge mainsail, heavy and a double purchase mainsail halyard so it takes a long time to raise it. Usually I do this by checking that I have space around me, motor slowly upwind on autopilot and spent the ten minutes it takes to crank it up the mast.

So, during that period I am motoring and am therefore the give way vessel to any boats sailing. Clearly though, I am very restricted in my ability to maneuver with a main half way up!

So why do other yachtsman think its amusing to create a collision situation and then expect me to alter course, its pretty obvious what I am trying to do.

I have a similiar situation - except my main has a gaff and throat to haul up. The throat is 4:1, the peak 2:1. That makes for miles and miles of halyard to be hauled which takes a while.

I usually find a reasonable patch of water, head slightly to port of head to wind and cut the engine. I am then on starboard tack, pointing higher than anyone else. This reduces the problem a bit......