Bavarias old and new?

[bluedragon]

We're just browsing the used boat market right now trying to decide what we want for comfortable summer cruising for two around the UK.

You might have noticed from earlier posts of mine that we're shifting our attention from the "old mankys" to the "new shineys" for a while, and recently come across surprisingly little difference in asking price between Bavarias of early 90s vintage and ones 10 years newer (say 2003/4).

I know from these forums that the early models were supposedly better built, etc, etc, and maybe even have a "cult" following by now, but is this a REAL practical difference that we'd notice, or another one of those myths that goes around the boating world and simply justifies a higher asking price than would otherwise be the case?

 

[jonjo]

Most replies you get here will be of little value due to ignorance of vested interest.

Even a question as simple as "why did the furling drum on my charter boat break" attracts 70% junk replies.

 

[bluedragon]

I know Bavaria threads often end up like "anchor" threads, but amongst the anti- and pro-Bav debate I might even get the answer I'm looking for You never know!!!

 

[boatmike]

Avoiding the Bav debate there are two issues here. One jonjo alludes to is that you have to take account of who answers. Most times people don't like any slur on their choice and think there is nothing better. Many defend a certain marque simply because they bought one. That's true of any type of boat too. You regularly get... In mast reefing sucks..... Cats capsize..... defended by those who have them. (I have a cat with in mast reefing!!) I fancy the proper answer to yourquestion is regardless of marque. The worst depreciation is in the first 5 years. Then the price is more a function of condition rather than age. A good older boat may well be in better condition than one 5 years old that's been neglected. It is often true that they are better equipped too...

 

[fireball]

I've been told that midway through 2001 Bavaria lost their German Lloyds register for their boats - whether that is to do with the layup and build quality or not I don't know.
We have a 1999 build Bav and build is very good - I'd say on par with our earlier built Jenneau.
We have decent storage below the seats and good cupboards above - the newer boats seem to have 1/2 height cupboards above ...
I would say that for an early to mid 2000's boat you should expect all the new build niggles to be resolved so I doubt there will be significant difference between those and the earlier ones - other than in layout. They haven't sunk or fallen apart and most seem to be able to sail around the UK waters without too much fuss. Even our 1999 one got us comfortably across to Cherbourg with a good wind and interesting seas ... (they weren't big, but it was commented on that the boat gave no suprises)
Even the new Bav 34 on the SIBS stand still had plywood interiors (not quite gone down the Chipboard route of Ben&Jen! ... yet!!)

So - new or old .... well - I think that is going to be down to you to decide which model you want!! Bavaria - the standard production boats - with no two vessels identical!!

 

[Cerddinen]

To answer this question you can check some important facts. Look at the displacement, and especially the proportion of displacement from ballast. Look at the size of the winches and the standing rigging. Old Yachting World tests used to provide a diagram showing the fibreglass lay-up schedule. Try to get hold of that information. Look at the bulkheads. Are they bonded to the hull structure or just glued place? How many keel bolts are there, and what backing plates are used to support them? You may also consider (though where the information can be found I have no idea) trying to discover how the hull was produced: by hand or from a chopper gun, and the type of resin used.

 

[Tranona]

Despite the cynicism expressed so far let me try and answer your question.

The earlier Bavarias were not the mass produced things they are now. They were pretty main stream, comparable with Moodys and some of the Scandinavians. They were generally medium displacement boats and fairly conservative in both design and construction.

Towards the end of the 90's they shifted tack and went for a larger volume market, particularly the growing Med charter market. Designs became lighter displacement and prices dropped to reflect the lower amount of materials and efficiencies from volume production. Initially they kept the same interior style but dramaticaly cut costs by simplifying construction. My 2001 37 has the same style interior as, say an earlier 390 but not "hand crafted".

Later boats continued the trend toward simplification, reduction in materials and even more efficient production. To give you an idea of efficiency - I had an email on a Friday saying my boat would be starting next Monday, complete by next Friday and ready for shipment after testing the following Tuesday. It arrived in the Med with no faults and has given good service since then.

However, I would not dream of thinking it was the same as a 1990 boat. It is lighter displacement, has lower ballast ratio, in mast furling, no teak decks etc. But it was at least 30% cheaper in real terms than the earlier boat.

That price differential as you have discovered has continued to this day. The older boats have "suffered" similar depreciation, but starting from a higher original price and over a longer period of time. Arguably the older boats a more "seaworthy" or perhaps more accurately can cope better with a wider range of conditions, but I do not think they are necessarily better built - and are twice the age.

As to which you might choose that depends on what you want the boat for. The later boats are lighter, esier to handle, plain and simple and being newer probably have lower upkeep costs. However, if you want to do regular long distance sailing rather than coastal hopping and like the idea of a heavier boat then there is merit in considering the older models.

Hope that is unbiased enough!

 

[Tranona]

I've been told that midway through 2001 Bavaria lost their German Lloyds register for their boats - whether that is to do with the layup and build quality or not I don't know.

Even the new Bav 34 on the SIBS stand still had plywood interiors (not quite gone down the Chipboard route of Ben&Jen! ... yet!!)

Not sure that "lost" is the right word. My February 2001 boat is Lloyds certified, but it is only at a low level of production. Does not mean a Lloyds surveyor checked each boat, just that the lay up and structures had been approved by Lloyds. Few boats go this route now because the RCD has embedded standards and mass production firms do not see any advantage in paying for the label. I do not think the standard of the structures and rigs have changed significantly, unlike the interiors!

I think you will find that the 34 you looked at (along with the 38) will be the last you see with that type of interior. They are obsolete boats and the 34 replacements, the 35 which was at the show and the new 32 will be new MFI style. Vey instructive to go from the 34 to the 35!

 

[jonjo]

trying to discover how the hull was produced: by hand or from a chopper gun

So in summary you know zero about subtle differences between 5 and 15 year old Bavarias or how they are produced. Why bother posting?

 

[Woodlouse]

So in summary you know zero about subtle differences between 5 and 15 year old Bavarias or how they are produced. Why bother posting?

Why do you bother posting? If you knew any more about the topic asked surely you'd have imparted the information to the best of your knowledge? Instead all you've done is slammed everyones opinions before they've even had time to express one.

 

[jonjo]

Why do you bother posting? If you knew any more about the topic asked surely you'd have imparted the information

I own a Bavaria and hence I have a vested interest that would devalue any reply I offer.

My second post was an angry response to some Jeanneau owner insinuating that Bavaria hulls are built using a chopper gun.

Edit: His comment was analogous to a Seat car owner responding to a query on Skodas and saying "but I suggest you make sure the body shell is not fabricated from compressed recycled news paper".

 

[bluedragon]

Thanks Tranona, that's exactly what I was trying to understand. I like your description of the modern interiors to come. It's what I said a few months back when confronted with a 2007 Sun Odyssey "the interior had been fitted-out by MFI". It was appalling...plastic imitation-wood laminate that squeaked and chipped at the edges as soon as you moved it. The older (1990s) Beneteaus weren't like this (I sailed lots of them) and Bavaria will do themselves no favours by folowing this route. If we do consider a Bav it's unlikely to be newer than an early 2000s 34/36, though it was the older 350 that originally caught my eye. Yes, they are heavier boats, more ballast, different keel shape, etc, which is usually what I'd look for, but I'm trying to keep an open mind.

 

[Woodlouse]

Owning one doesn't count as a vested interest. Unless you're trying to sell it. If anything it gives you more of an opportunity to express an honest and impartial opinion of what you've bought.

How do you honestly expect to learn anything if you consider owning a specific boat makes you biased to the point that your opinion on it is worthless? All you've done is intentionally ignored all the points of view that are most valid, buy the people who know the product best.

 

[Tranona]

If we do consider a Bav it's unlikely to be newer than an early 2000s 34/36, though it was the older 350 that originally caught my eye. Yes, they are heavier boats, more ballast, different keel shape, etc, which is usually what I'd look for, but I'm trying to keep an open mind.

For obvious reasons, I think you are in the right area. Early 2000's boats are I think the best compromise. We got hooked on a 2000 42 and then decided a 34 was best for us. However, it was a new model and Bavaria had premium priced it and the 37 which has a similar layout to the 42 was little more expensive. Have not regretted it, although the 34/36 is still probably the better layout for private usage.

Unless you have serious off shore ambitions I don't think you can go wrong. I have never heard of an unhappy Bavaria owner - only from lots of non-owners who don't seem to like them for some reason!

 

[jonjo]

How do you honestly expect to learn anything if you consider owning a specific boat makes you biased to the point that your opinion on it is worthless?

From bitter YBW experience I know there will never be a constructive balanced assessment of the Bavaria marque here.

And don't forget this thread is young, the Westerly MAB Brigade is about to awake from its post lunch snooze.

 

[bluedragon]

Oh...just a postscript...what's the weird rubber-like coating on the decks of the 350s?? It's super-non-slip, but it looks like **!! Can it be painted or something?

 

[Cerddinen]

It does seem that some people are exceptionally sensitive to the point of paranoia if they can think my comments were insinuating anything about Bavarias. The original poster asked for advice on how to judge whether a newer boat was higher or lower quality than an older boat. In response I provided several ways in which a comparison could be made. These ways are entirely generic and can be applied to any boat from any manufacturer. My intention was for them to be helpful. I may - or may not - have personal information about Bavarias but, as was rightly observed, my post did not reveal any.

 

[capt_courageous]

Cerddinen Your original post seemed very sensibile and unbiased to me. Quite why anyone should then jump down your throat I really cannot understand.

 

[Davy_S]

I have always been a fan of older boats, long keel, narrow hulls, loads of ballast etc. Someone out in Greece hit a reef in a Benny 50 recently, they did about 5000 euros worth of damage, the local laugh was, if it was a Bavaria, the keel would have fell off, you know the rest.
I recently had a sail on a 45ft Bavaria (i think it was 45) anyway, my opinion was it was a very nice yacht, well suited to use in the med and would make a very nice and comfortable cruising yacht, i felt the main ballast came from form stabillity and not sheer keel stability, I am not myself experienced enough to know its crossing of oceans capability, however i would certainly not have turned my nose up at it!

 

[Sailfree]

It is unfortunate that the name Bavaria does cause some emotive responses.

Bavaria's are boats that are excellent value for their money and I suspect are a little thought provoking to people that spend hours maintaining an old boat in addition to those that wondered where all the extra money had gone on their quality Swedish boat and did that Swedish boat represent true value for money.

I do have to smile though at the thrust of this thread. Where as once we had the MAB brigade v the AWB brigade we now appear to have a subdivision class of older AWB's v newer AWB's.

No doubt this argument can also be extended to Jeanneaus as to my limited knowledge the older Sun Fizz & SunLegends were good robust sailing boats that stood up to the heavy use of a charter market very well and were good sailing boats. We jumped at buying a 43DS when we were told they were ceasing production as the newer boats seemed a lighter and frailer construction.

In reality I think Bavarias are little different from other mass produced boats. The investment in design is greater due to the numbers that will be produced and they are chasing a competitive market so with greater understanding of the strength of materials and stresses involved things get thinner and lighter but still adequate and hence more cost effective.

When I started looking at boats I produced a spreadsheet that compared length to displacement, a column for the USA stability ratio (introduced after the 79 Fastnet race) another for the AVS and ballast ratio. It was interesting in that is also showed boat costs were more related to weight than length. While not as drastically different a similar spreadsheet comparing older to newer Bavarias may be interesting.

Ultimately I suspect your decision will depend on whether you accept more maintenace on an older heavier well used Bavaria to less on a newer lighter one that probably sails quicker in lighter winds due to its weight. THere is no right boats and few bad boats but the one best for you is the one that suits your compromises best and dare I say it - meets your own set of prejudices.

Remember with modern boatbuilding techniques and better materials lighter might not equal weaker.