Bavaria Keel Problems

[Skylark87]

Is anyone aware of a 'common' issue with Bavaria keels and delamination? We have a shared 2005 Bavaria 36 which suffered a grounding earlier in the year. On lift out the boat yard have reported lateral movement of the keel. The insurance company surveyor is of the view that this isn't as a result of the grounding but is due to some delamination in the area where the keel is attached to the hull. He is of the view that this is a typical problem with Bavarias. The thing is we can't find anyone else reporting a similar problem.

Any info would be gratefully received.

 

[neilf39]

Just type Bavaria and keel and problems into Google and take your pick.

 

[Tomahawk]

This reminds me of that old adage about not having a drink problem.
I drink, I get drunk, I fall over, no problem.

 

[jwilson]

Are you sure the grounding you know about is the only one in the boat's life? AFAIK there is no generic problem with Bavaria 36 keels - and a LOT of them were built, many having a hard life in charter.

The ones that did have problems were a series of Bavaria Match 38s built as racing designs.

 

[mainsail1]

Of course there has been a problem with Bavaria keels and delamination of the surrounding hull. I had one so I should know.
But don't expect any help from Bavaria and expect the usual tripe about 'it must have run aground'.

 

[[3889]]

Not really a surprise that the insurer is using a surveyor to avoid a claim. I stand to be corrected but surely a grounding will cause delamination of the keel matrix. Maybe tell insurer you intend to appoint your own surveyor and expect them to reimburse you this cost if the damage is found to be due to grounding.

 

[pvb]

Is anyone aware of a 'common' issue with Bavaria keels and delamination? We have a shared 2005 Bavaria 36 which suffered a grounding earlier in the year. On lift out the boat yard have reported lateral movement of the keel. The insurance company surveyor is of the view that this isn't as a result of the grounding but is due to some delamination in the area where the keel is attached to the hull. He is of the view that this is a typical problem with Bavarias. The thing is we can't find anyone else reporting a similar problem.

Any info would be gratefully received.

Welcome to the forums. There's no inherent defect in Bavaria hulls to cause delamination, and I'd suggest that if your boat has delamination it's a consequence of grounding - it certainly isn't "a typical problem with Bavarias". Quality control in Bavaria production is generally outstanding. Indeed, amongst all makes of AWB, delamination is incredibly rare.

Perhaps you will get better reassurance if you post your question on one of the Bavaria owners' forums.

http://www.bavariaowners.co.uk/forum.php
http://bavaria.sdfjkl.org/forum/index.php

 

[awol]

Remember the surveyor is acting for the insurance company not you. The advice to use your own surveyor is sound. I would be interested to know which insurer you are with.

 

[robertj]

Is anyone aware of a 'common' issue with Bavaria keels and delamination? We have a shared 2005 Bavaria 36 which suffered a grounding earlier in the year. On lift out the boat yard have reported lateral movement of the keel. The insurance company surveyor is of the view that this isn't as a result of the grounding but is due to some delamination in the area where the keel is attached to the hull. He is of the view that this is a typical problem with Bavarias. The thing is we can't find anyone else reporting a similar problem.

Any info would be gratefully received.

A friend had his Bavaria 34 on a semi drying berth, she was always in water but the keel in the mud.
The keel cane away from the hull due he presumed to passing boats wash when she was stuck in the mud.
His surveyor looked and the consensus of opinion was that the keel to be dropped and rebedded and bolts torqued up again.

 

[capnsensible]

This reminds me of that old adage about not having a drink problem.
I drink, I get drunk, I fall over, no problem.

I spent March and April of this year sailing a Bavaria 46 from Antigua to Tahiti.

No problem.

 

[lpdsn]

Are you sure the grounding you know about is the only one in the boat's life? AFAIK there is no generic problem with Bavaria 36 keels - and a LOT of them were built, many having a hard life in charter.

The ones that did have problems were a series of Bavaria Match 38s built as racing designs.

+1

I'm not above the odd joke about Bavaria keels but in reality they seem to have no more problems that any other AWB. A previous grounding seems more likely.

The Matches were different as they were Bavaria's abortive foray into cruiser racers. I raced on one. Issue was, allegedly, the lay-up around the keel. The boat was recalled to have this strengthened under warranty without the lawyers admitting anything. Nothing there that was relevant to the cruising Bavarias.

 

[mainsail1]

Do you not think that the keel design should be strong enough to take all but the most severe groundings? Most boats ground somewhere at sometime, for example, to scrub the bottom on a scrubbing grid or to enter a muddy harbour on a rising tide.

 

[pvb]

Do you not think that the keel design should be strong enough to take all but the most severe groundings? Most boats ground somewhere at sometime, for example, to scrub the bottom on a scrubbing grid or to enter a muddy harbour on a rising tide.

It's not the keel design, surely, but rather the hull design? But, regardless of that, most boats are completely capable of using a scrubbing grid or dragging their keels through mud. It's the vicious grounding impacts that cause damage, and boats aren't generally built to take these, in the same way that cars aren't built to take impacts with trees, etc.

 

[lpdsn]

Do you not think that the keel design should be strong enough to take all but the most severe groundings? Most boats ground somewhere at sometime, for example, to scrub the bottom on a scrubbing grid or to enter a muddy harbour on a rising tide.

Some designs, mainly Scandanavian I think with steel frames, do push this from a marketing point of view. They also come at a price.

I'd certainly argue that damage should be easily spotted and the design should ensure reliable repair is possible, but when I put that forward in the context of Cheeki Rafiki I got surprising little agreement.

Previous damage in the keel area, including de-lamination, should've been spotted by a surveyor if it existed when the boat was bought.

 

[Resolution]

Do you not think that the keel design should be strong enough to take all but the most severe groundings? Most boats ground somewhere at sometime, for example, to scrub the bottom on a scrubbing grid or to enter a muddy harbour on a rising tide.

Cars are designed to take impacts up to about 5 mph , IIRC, without structural damage. ie about 7% of the open road speed. On a comparable basis one might just argue that
a 40 ft yacht should be able to take an impact up to 0.5 knots without significant damage. In my experience most yachts do.

 

[Concerto]

Cars are designed to take impacts up to about 5 mph , IIRC, without structural damage. ie about 7% of the open road speed. On a comparable basis one might just argue that
a 40 ft yacht should be able to take an impact up to 0.5 knots without significant damage. In my experience most yachts do.

I may be old school, but I expect my keel and hull to remain undamaged after grounding on hard sand at full speed. If you only expected no damage at 0.5 knots, then what damage would you expect at full speed? It would then be normal to rip the keel off and sink. Groundings are a normal part of sailing, so a boat should be strong enough to withstand them.

 

[mainsail1]

I may be old school, but I expect my keel and hull to remain undamaged after grounding on hard sand at full speed. If you only expected no damage at 0.5 knots, then what damage would you expect at full speed? It would then be normal to rip the keel off and sink. Groundings are a normal part of sailing, so a boat should be strong enough to withstand them.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

[Tranona]

Groundings are a normal part of sailing, so a boat should be strong enough to withstand them.

Groundings are not a normal part of sailing for most people. They may be more common in certain areas or particular type of sailing, but I would hazard a guess that the majority of boats go through their whole lives without grounding. If you want a grounding resistant boat then don't buy one with an attached fin keel.

BTW keels rarely, if ever become detached through grounding. The keel and hull structure absorbs the forces and may or may not lead to damage that needs repairs. On the Bavaria in question (and many other designs and makes of boats using similar construction methods) any damage is pretty obvious to professionals. Usually there are signs of failure of the seal at the forward end and depression of the hull at the aft end, and in serious cases, internal damage of floors at the aft end.

This is exactly what the OP is reporting but it seems that the dispute is about whether the damage was a result of this incident or something that happened in the past.

 

[GrahamM376]

I may be old school, but I expect my keel and hull to remain undamaged after grounding on hard sand at full speed. If you only expected no damage at 0.5 knots, then what damage would you expect at full speed? It would then be normal to rip the keel off and sink. Groundings are a normal part of sailing, so a boat should be strong enough to withstand them.

There's a big difference between grounding at speed with an "old tech" cruising keel such as mine which is attached along its 6 ft or so length and a performance high aspect deep keel which is mounted over a much shorter area. The latter will obviously suffer more due to the leverage and smaller mounting area. As Tranona says, damage is usually obvious and sometimes there is a radial crack in the hull, aft of the keel, which I've seen on other Bavarias which have grounded at speed.

 

[Tomahawk]

Regardless of grounding, the keel mounting has to take a hell of a lot of force.

Think about what it goes through beating to windward in a chop and heeled over at 40 degrees. It weighs about two tonnes and about 1.5 m deep and is being waved about like a twig. That is a hell of a lot of bending moment on the hull mountings.