Battery Technologies

[fireball]

We're looking to replace our house batteries - Nicks thread on engine batteries gave us a few ideas so did some searching around ...

If we replace like for like we'll have 280AH across 2 cells - this should be suitable for our requirements. Space isn't a huge issue...

Anyway - seen some Sealed Calcium cells - 12v, 180ah, 500 cycles at a "good" price ... but not come across Calcium cells before ... is this type any good for leisure use?

 

[pmyatt]

We're looking to replace our house batteries - Nicks thread on engine batteries gave us a few ideas so did some searching around ...

If we replace like for like we'll have 280AH across 2 cells - this should be suitable for our requirements. Space isn't a huge issue...

Anyway - seen some Sealed Calcium cells - 12v, 180ah, 500 cycles at a "good" price ... but not come across Calcium cells before ... is this type any good for leisure use?

Calcium is there to add physical strength to ordinary lead acid battery plates. Other additives also include selenium and antimony. Calcium is supposed to reduce water loss in flooded batteries. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery

 

[fireball]

just been reading up a little on it - the Sealed Calcium ones are supposedly less prone to self-discharge - so that's a pro - but apparently they have a shorter service life? I assume that is due to water loss ...

Otherwise they are - as you say - just a lead acid battery ...

Am I right that water loss occurs during fast charging? That wouldn't be a significant issue for us as we're on a swinging mooring during the summer months with just a solar panel to keep the batteries up .. with less self discharge the battery charger wouldn't need to be on a lot during the winter either.

 

[pvb]

Most "maintenance free" batteries use lead/calcium for the plates. Being semi-sealed, they keep cleaner than conventional wet batteries. Although you can't top up the electrolyte, maintenance free batteries have a good reserve of electrolyte so should last many years. They're also quite tolerant of higher charging voltages.

I use Merlin PowerPack batteries for my domestic bank. They are good quality batteries with a 5 year guarantee, although on previous experience I'd expect them to last 8-10 years. I charge them using an Adverc system, so they're regularly subjected to 14.8v charging.

 

[Trundlebug]

My last car had a lead calcium battery.

I changed the car when it was 9 years old, 184,000m on the clock, still with the original battery and it was absolutely fine. It sill started fine throughout last winter's sub two digits temperatures.

Different environment & usage I know, but a useful indicator of the service life nonetheless.

 

[Plevier]

just been reading up a little on it - the Sealed Calcium ones are supposedly less prone to self-discharge - so that's a pro - but apparently they have a shorter service life? I assume that is due to water loss ...

Otherwise they are - as you say - just a lead acid battery ...

Am I right that water loss occurs during fast charging? That wouldn't be a significant issue for us as we're on a swinging mooring during the summer months with just a solar panel to keep the batteries up .. with less self discharge the battery charger wouldn't need to be on a lot during the winter either.

Lead calcium does have slightly lower self discharge and lower gassing but don't get carried away over it.

Calcium fans always quote figures relating to lead antimony batteries of long ago containing 8-10% antimony. Modern ones are typically 1.5% and virtually indistinguishable in performance from calcium. There are many "sealed maintenance free" lead antimony ones, not just lead calcium. There is really no difference for the majority of users.

Calcium is generally thought to be more prone to corrosion especially in high ambients. Antimony was generally thought to be more resistant to cycling but I'm not sure that's true of the low antimony ones.

As already said, the antimony or calcium is just an alloying agent to give strength to the plate grids it plays no part in the chemistry.

Yes fast charging will make a "sealed maintenance free" battery lose water. The small print invariably (in my experience anyway) limits you to float recharging, typically 14V. If used with fast chargers they will almost certainly need topping up at some time. Most can be, often you just need to peel a label off and bingo! there are the vents.

True sealed lead acid (SLA, AGM, VRLA) -as opposed to the flooded "sealed maintenance free" ones - are always lead calcium or lead tin or pure lead because antimony does have adverse effects in these.

 

[oldgit]

I found this just sums its all up http://www.sterling-power.com/support-faq-2.htm


•For general leisure use: use low cost Lead Acid which can be topped up with water.

 

[Hamma]

I found this just sums its all up http://www.sterling-power.com/support-faq-2.htm


•For general leisure use: use low cost Lead Acid which can be topped up with water.

Hi, I just found and read that and then searched on here and found that the work had already been done for me!

As a precis (if you don't have time to read this FAQ) he says that Low Cost L/A open batteries are as good as any other type (so long as you don't capsize) and that all other battery technologies (perhaps except NiCad which he doesn't mention) suffer from disadvantages in order to provide the 'benefits'.

He also says that long-term liveaboards should invest in Deep Cycle L/A batteries.

Is he correct in his assertion that Sealed and Gel types are in effect L/A open types that have been cripppled to provide other benefits?

If so I will do as he suggests and replace the whole bank with cheap lead acid opens and buy some distilled water and a decent smart regulator.

 

[fireball]

That's my intention now ... well - probably not the cheapest of the cheap ... but not sealed ones so we have at least a fighting chance ...

 

[sailinglegend420]

Its a pity someone has dug up this very old sterling-power article.

The man is a bit of a law unto himself and not thought of very highly in professional marine circles. His criticism if Gel/AGM's which he lumps together, is perhaps because his fast chargers don't work for these kind of batteries. For "fast charge" he means "higher voltage". Sealed batteries don't usually like "high voltages".

AGM's claim to fast charge are for two reasons. First their internal resistance is very low so to charge a flooded wet cell bank by 100Ah you need to put in up to 130Ah. Sealed AGMs need only 102Ah.

They can also accept a much higher charge current than flooded cells which would typically accept a current of Capacity/4 - C/4 - AGMs can accept a charge of up to Cx4. So a 100Ah battery could accept a charge current of 400amps, even at 14.2 volts.

Both these facts - which can be found by searching the web - produce a much faster charge, which is why many people are now switching to AGMs because they do what it says on the tin - Mr Stirling just hasn't read the labels recently.

If you go for AGMs you must follow a good charging regime according to the manufacturers specs, and monitor the voltage and capacity with a battery monitor. If you charge your batteries when the lights go dim, then I agree with Mr Sterling, don't waste your money on AGMs.

By the way Gels are a totally different and older technology that don't "fast charge" are nowhere near as good as AGMs. Few are now sold for marine use, and they are much more expensive than AGMs.


A message for Mr Sterling is in my signature:

 

[Ricd]

I found this just sums its all up http://www.sterling-power.com/support-faq-2.htm


•For general leisure use: use low cost Lead Acid which can be topped up with water.

Excellent article...

 

[Chris_Robb]

Its a pity someone has dug up this very old sterling-power article.

The man is a bit of a law unto himself and not thought of very highly in professional marine circles. His criticism if Gel/AGM's which he lumps together, is perhaps because his fast chargers don't work for these kind of batteries. For "fast charge" he means "higher voltage". Sealed batteries don't usually like "high voltages".

AGM's claim to fast charge are for two reasons. First their internal resistance is very low so to charge a flooded wet cell bank by 100Ah you need to put in up to 130Ah. Sealed AGMs need only 102Ah.

They can also accept a much higher charge current than flooded cells which would typically accept a current of Capacity/4 - C/4 - AGMs can accept a charge of up to Cx4. So a 100Ah battery could accept a charge current of 400amps, even at 14.2 volts.

Both these facts - which can be found by searching the web - produce a much faster charge, which is why many people are now switching to AGMs because they do what it says on the tin - Mr Stirling just hasn't read the labels recently.

If you go for AGMs you must follow a good charging regime according to the manufacturers specs, and monitor the voltage and capacity with a battery monitor. If you charge your batteries when the lights go dim, then I agree with Mr Sterling, don't waste your money on AGMs.

By the way Gels are a totally different and older technology that don't "fast charge" are nowhere near as good as AGMs. Few are now sold for marine use, and they are much more expensive than AGMs.


A message for Mr Sterling is in my signature:

Having been a sterling devotee for some time, I too agree that this old article is now not so relevant.

1. Sterling no longer advises the use of cheap lead acid batteries. His rules are relevant only to the top quality batteries.

This is because the cheap[er batteries simply fall to bits under the assault of 14.8V charging. I know, I have chucked 5 less than 15 month old Numaxes that simply gave up the ghost - most with a loose contact pole. Charles Stirling said that he only recommend that you use batteries like Rolls, or Trojan.

I have now replaced with reabsorbtion seal Lead acid now charging at 14.4. There is a huge difference in charge rate though, a reduction on start up from 88amps to about 55amps. But I do not wish to be in a situation with a cabin full of fumes from 2 over heated batteries (which had to be dumped overboard)

 

[ianj99]

Its a pity someone has dug up this very old sterling-power article.

The man is a bit of a law unto himself and not thought of very highly in professional marine circles. His criticism if Gel/AGM's which he lumps together, is perhaps because his fast chargers don't work for these kind of batteries. For "fast charge" he means "higher voltage". Sealed batteries don't usually like "high voltages".

AGM's claim to fast charge are for two reasons. First their internal resistance is very low so to charge a flooded wet cell bank by 100Ah you need to put in up to 130Ah. Sealed AGMs need only 102Ah.

They can also accept a much higher charge current than flooded cells which would typically accept a current of Capacity/4 - C/4 - AGMs can accept a charge of up to Cx4. So a 100Ah battery could accept a charge current of 400amps, even at 14.2 volts.

Both these facts - which can be found by searching the web - produce a much faster charge, which is why many people are now switching to AGMs because they do what it says on the tin - Mr Stirling just hasn't read the labels recently.

If you go for AGMs you must follow a good charging regime according to the manufacturers specs, and monitor the voltage and capacity with a battery monitor. If you charge your batteries when the lights go dim, then I agree with Mr Sterling, don't waste your money on AGMs.

By the way Gels are a totally different and older technology that don't "fast charge" are nowhere near as good as AGMs. Few are now sold for marine use, and they are much more expensive than AGMs.


A message for Mr Sterling is in my signature:

I think its both disingenous and arrogant to be so dismissive of Charles Sterling's work, experience and knowledge.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I'd rather take Charles' advice than any armchair expert, of which there are far too many on most forums..

Ian

 

[Leonidas]

I think its both disingenous and arrogant to be so dismissive of Charles Sterling's work, experience and knowledge.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I'd rather take Charles' advice than any armchair expert, of which there are far too many on most forums..

Ian

Agreed. Eveyone is entitled to their opinion. What puzzles me though is the ability of the AGM battery makers in spite of the 3:1 price dissadvantage ( when compared with the wet cell batteries )to compete well in the market. Surely they must have a good product to sell and enough satisfied (and knowledgeable) customers who are prepared to see some advantages in this choice.

 

[Hamma]

Agreed. Eveyone is entitled to their opinion. What puzzles me though is the ability of the AGM battery makers in spite of the 3:1 price dissadvantage ( when compared with the wet cell batteries )to compete well in the market. Surely they must have a good product to sell and enough satisfied (and knowledgeable) customers who are prepared to see some advantages in this choice.

Is there a 3:1 price differential? Sterling says that using Lead Acid batteries with an intelligent charger gives better results for less money than AGM batteries, however... He then (apparently) goes on to qualify that statement by saying that only high-quality L/A open batteries should be used. These cost upwards of £275.

So now we have maintenance free, spill free, fume free, fast chargeable AGM batteries against high quality Open L/A batteries that require maintenance and can under certain circumstances blow hot sulphuric acid into your face and eyes, for about the same price.

I am none-the-wiser.

I sense an anchor style level of disagreement here!

 

[duncan99210]

All I know about this one is that I have 2 AGM batteries fitted as the domestic bank. They were bought from a battery supplier who deals mainly in traction batteries for fork lifts etc. I had asked him to recommend batteries that would be: a) low maintenance, b) able to sustain a large number of charge/discharge cycles and c) be as compact as possible to save space.

I don't recall what make they are (and I'm not about to upset SWMBO by digging into the locker to find out) but we've had them for 3 years now and they've behaved perfectly. IIRC they cost about £50 in total more than I would have paid for conventional wet cells of the same capacity but are less than 2/3 the volume. And I don't have to keep topping the things up.

Any help?

 

[fireball]

Well - you could tell us who the supplier was! ...

 

[sailinglegend420]

.......What puzzles me though is the ability of the AGM battery makers in spite of the 3:1 price dissadvantage ( when compared with the wet cell batteries )to compete well in the market. Surely they must have a good product to sell and enough satisfied (and knowledgeable) customers who are prepared to see some advantages in this choice.

Not all AGMs are the same and some users have had bad experiences - the word gets around.

High quality Lead Acid will probably give all users a longer life because AGMs will not accept abuse so well.

To get the very best out of AGM's high charging currents you may need to spend even more money and increase the size of your shorepower and alternator.

They are only a few marine AGM manufacturers - for more information on Lifeline AGMs see the following interesting sites:

Independent Lifeline battery tests.
http://www.morganscloud.com/2010/08/02/agm-battery-test-part-1/

US dealer.
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#AGM, or Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries

UK Dealer.
http://www.impossiblebattery.com/downloads/Lifeline-Application-Article.pdf

Lifeline 34 page AGM manual!!!
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf

 

[Leonidas]

Not all AGMs are the same and some users have had bad experiences - the word gets around.

I don't believe anybody claims that AGMs are not immune to malteatment. It's all in their manual including procedures of reciscitation if gone dead. All I can speak from experience is that I replaced my wet cell battery(traction) set ( 1 starter +2 domestic) which had been a PITA and runined my summer with a nearly equivalent capacity LIFELINE AGMs 5 years ago and they are still going strong. I have always left them in the boat during wintering and on charge through a SOLARA panel. Maintenance ? Just greased the terminals. and left switches to off position. You do however have a point about the suitability of the battery charger when connected to shore. In my case I replaced the old 15 amp single stage charger with a Sterling 3 stage.40 amp. So far so good.

 

[ex-Gladys]

High quality Lead Acid will probably give all users a longer life because AGMs will not accept abuse so well.

Hmmmm... About 5 years ago I replaced a set of 3 PC1700 Odyssey batteries that had been permanently connected to mains power for two years on a "non-smart" charger.

The replacements were Squadron. Due to ineptitude on my part I left the boat for six weeks with the domestic power on and the Nasa Navtex (at least) running. On my return, the batteries were registering a grand total of 4 volts. I plugged in a smart charger, and got the batteries back, they are still in use and displaying a healthy 12.85 on open circuit. Any flooded battery would not have survived